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Good post,Monsant.
I agree that there were certain things that we all understood better as eight-year-olds. You don't walk through grandmas' garden, and you don't cross a busy street by yourself. Simple to understand rules with simple to understand consequences. You want to avoid getting your ear yanked by grandma or getting flattened by a car. But what we start to grasp a little later is that there are more and more rules that we don't really understand. Why did I have to wait until I went to college to write with a pen at school? If I'm 16 years old, why can't I bang my really hot 15-year-old girlfriend. But we start to understand that society's norms -- the social contract that we all operate under, is based on that common respect for rules and laws. If my arguments on this thread have suggested to you that I believe that laws = morality, then I have misspoken. Obeying laws is "right." Doing "the right thing" is usually (but certainly not always) the morally proper thing to do. I'm afraid I'm just not smart enough to mount an epistemological argument about which activities in the wine.com saga are truly right and truly wrong. I just happen to think that tattletales are not bad people on the whole. ----------------------- Le vin français est inférieur Du vin français est surestimé Le vin français suce |
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As you've stated, Wine.com's statement does not make any sense when you break it down. PR spin rarely does. And since Mssrs. Bergsund and Osborn asked, my given name is Kevin Silke and once upon a time I was a fairly good customer of yours. It was your pricing and selections that eventually lost me as I became better educated. Your recent actions have done nothing to change my mind on these matters. |
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I'm of two minds. One says, it's business, and they're within their rights. The other thinks this was the business plan all along, create a network that can comply with the laws as written and then try to get them enforced. Something smacks of what my mother called "pulling a fast one" when I was eight. It's a bit sneaky. At the end of the day, I agree. This isn't important enough to be a "Moral" issue, capital M. But for me, if I were in a state Wine.com can ship to, that works against them. There are things that I will buy or, more commonly vote for in a civic context, even if they are bad for me personally. Since this is not a moral issue, I wouldn't have to feel bad about simply protecting my own interests. Insofar as it matters to me, I can't see how at least at this point wine.com's interests are not aligned with distributors. That means their interests are opposed to consumers and, as such, mine. --------- Tim Burnett |
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Intersting release and data from the SWRA about alcohol wholesalers contributions to political campaigns.
http://www.specialtywineretailers.org/documents/WholesaleProtection-2008.pdf http://www.specialtywineretailers.org/pressreleases/Nat...holesaleRelease1.pdf |
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Oh this is rich, a lawyer trying to lecture me on morality. Somebody whose professional ethics demand that he never takes right and wrong into play, only the letter of the law. Let me try to explain this to you again, the laws are simply the words of man, morality is on a higher plain. And I say that as an atheist, you do not need any spiritual mumbo-jumbo to know right from wrong, although it seems you need to have never suffered the indoctrination of law school. As a member of the bar you are required to give your client your best effort, even if that means looking for a legal loophole, or a slight technical error to get him off. Explain to me exactly how it is moral and not just legal for somebody that is guilty of a violent crime to be placed back in society, to continue to menace the population, just because they were able to hire a “good” lawyer. Laws are arbitrary, capricious and often discriminatory, morals are universal. I understand that the rules of a just society need to be codified, the problem is there are way too many rules. Many which have been put in place to benefit one group over others. That is not moral. I ask one other thing of you, before you attack me as a sociopath because I would like to purchase wine that is not available in my state, please try, just once, to actually address the issue at hand. If I am unhappy with how a company goes about their business I’m not compelled by any moral or legal rule to use their services. I also have a perfect right to air my grievances. Its called freedom of speech ever heard of it? "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Gerald Ford |
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Funny, but I aalways viewed the tattletale in the negative. Generally, they tend to be:
1) Smug, self-interested and self-absorbed, with an overly high opinion of their own righteousness. 2) Sneaky little sh*ts, too weak to address the situation themselves, preferring to sneak behind the offender's back. 3) Two-faced, due to the fact that they usually have done something similar, or at least at the same level, and would bitch and moan to the high heavens if they had to answer for it. Other than that, they are just fine. |
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Wow, VT2IT. Nice rant. Your one little small-minded post there is so full of ridiculous crap, that I need to break it down...
I have no problem with your attack on lawyers in toto. As lawyers, we learn early on that most people who don't have much day-to-day contact with attorneys often hold the profession in disdain until they actually find themselves in need of a lawyer. But you, sir, have no basis whatsoever to question my professional ethics. You don't know me and your assumptions about how I practice law are way off base. Your ramblings here reveal some pretty sophomoric perceptions of the law. Let's look at your logic:
I'm not sure I see your point there. Are there other professions out there that expect you to do the best job you can do? I'm not sure what you do for a living, but remind me, if we ever work together, that your agenda is more important than anything else. And then there are your rantings about criminal law and procedure:
I'm as frustrated by O.J. getting off as the next guy. You need to remember, though, that our Constitutional protections are in place to ensure that innocent men don't go to prison. I'm not a criminal lawyer, but suggest you do a little reading on the subject. You can start with the 4th amendment, the 5th amendment, read the Magna Carta. If that's too heavy for you, perhaps you should rent the movie Gideon's Trumpet. I'm not sure what to say about this. I'm afraid you're just flat-out wrong here. Laws are very rarely arbitrary or capricious, and in today's society, they certainly are not discriminatory. If they are, the Judicial Branch irons that out for us. I never called you a sociopath. I do think you have managed, via sloppy logic, to convince yourself that endorsement of violating the law is some proud social commentary. You have every right to decide whether or not to purchase wine from whomever you wish and for whatever reasons you wish. As a free market guy, I encourage that. If you're ordering from companies that are not legally shipping, don't complain when your wine is seized or you're hit with a fine. I also have no problem with your Seinfeldian right to air your grievances. Just don't criticize me when I point out all the reasons why you're wrong. Don't delude yourself into thinking that just because you're exercising your freedom of speech that anyone's listening to what you're saying. ----------------------- Le vin français est inférieur Du vin français est surestimé Le vin français suce |
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My point is that wine.com has stated that they DO believe that the "spitballs" should be legal for all. So, let's say its like this- Greg Maddux would like spitballs to be allowed, and has said so in public. He has however developed other pitches that work just fine for him. He sees, though, that other pitchers are throwing spitballs. He has a team mate directly dare one of those pitchers to throw him a spitball. When the pitcher does, Greg and his team mates jump up and demand that the ump throw the bum out. Needless to say, Greg would never have done anything like that. No smart pitcher would. Here is another one. A pharmaceutical company has a THC based anti-nausea drug. They claim it is both harmless and beneficial. They do have another approved money making drug used for the same purpose, but they see their profits threatened by small sellers of medical marijuana. Instead of lobbying for a change in the laws, or pressing authorities to step up enforcement, they themselves set up a sting to buy "medical" marijuana and turn the sellers over to law enforcement. PR disaster? You bet! |
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Actually, my attorney is a pretty stand up guy. He got me a walk on those trumped up assault charges.......
-------------------- "One may dislike carrots, spinach, beetroot, or the skin on hot milk. But not wine. It is like hating the air that one breathes, since each is equally indispensable." Marcel Ayme` |
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I doubt it. In Mr. Burgsund's first post on Vinography, he states that "We don't do this for the fun of it, but because states have come after us . . ." My interpretation of this is that Wine.com was perfectly happy making illegal shipments prior to the time that they were caught. Once caught, their goal became to spread the misery, while hiding behind the rationalization that they 'now operate within the law.' In my book, that's just plain slimy and childish. Enough so to preclude them from earning any of my business. |
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Seinfeldian??? You pointed out no resons why I'm wrong, only your sadly misguided opinions. And to that I for one am more then done listening. "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Gerald Ford |
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[/QUOTE] VT2IT, Lawyers are officers of the court. They are instructed to defend the rights of their clients within the limits of the law. Their professional ethics does mandate that lawyers maintain integrity, truthfullness and equity before the courts and their clients. Next time you find yourself trying to explain a dead body on your front porch, don't call a lawyer. Just talk to the police and explain the whole situation. They will believe you and you'll be just fine. *********************** "I have drunk not to the clouding of my reason, but just so much that I can still surely distinguish the syllables with my tongue." Athenaeus |
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Hey, sounds like a fun rest-of-the week! --------------- cheers, y'all! |
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Once snorting coke and prostitution is legal who will care about the rest of the stuff?
pissing people off since 1971! 'A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have.' -Thomas Jefferson |
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Nevada is halfway there |
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Why exactly is snorting coke and prostitution illegal? What damn right does the government have to tell you what you can do with your own body. A fine example of how laws are written to the whim of those in power.
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Gerald Ford |
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Quite a bit of thread drift here. To get back to the discussion about the Wine.com sting, I suggest a visit to Vinography.
I am in the business of online wine retailing, so this issue weighs heavy with me. www.winemonger.com |
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As a FORMER Wine.com customer, I am disgusted by this behavior. I hope all Wine.com customers join me in rewarding their despicable actions by never, ever patronizing Wine.com again. Period.
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Does everyone that want to boycott wine.com also currently boycotting the music industry? I'd say they have used "strong-arm" tactics for the past few years.
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Agreed with Chilepepper. The music industry is looking for a scapegoat for their lack of sales. No surprise there.
VT2IT your joking right? Unless you support government regulation of prostitution and drugs (like Holland) don't you think things might get a little out of control. Illicit drug use isn't exactly safe, just spend a few evenings in your local emergency room. Laws are written to protect the people, even those who don't feel they need any help. This thread should be more about changing laws and supporting those companies that fight the stupid shipping regulations. Stupid shipping regulations go into effect in Illinois come June 1st!! |
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