I pretty sure this could be that perpetual “can’t believe you just opened that can of worms” posting if you will but I am curious.

I’ve been off the list for a while posting as Toptr1 (have lost my password since then). Hence I am now here as Wineman77. In sorting through some of the interesting postings over the last few weeks, I noticed one topic that gets brought up often no matter where it was posted for conversation.

To many subscribers out there… Why is it that the mere thought of selling some of your inventory of wine for profit viewed so negatively? I understand inflating the price of the wine, etc… But is that really a just reason?

I certainly do not consider myself as an “Expert” but only an “Enthusiast” when it comes to the knowledge of wine and what it truly has to offer. Hence I may have less then the acceptable etiquette regarding this topic. So please feel free to educate me on the matter.

Perhaps it’s my “business sense” taking over… I personally don’t have any wine in my collection that I would not open. Every bottle I have, I purchased it to share with other wine lovers, try, or to drink it. However, if I were in search of a particular bottle or vintage because I have never had the opportunity to consume it? I would gladly pay extra to acquire that particular bottle. I wouldn’t expect anyone to sell me that bottle for his or her cost… Especially for the cult and heavily constrained and allocated wines.

Is it wrong for a person to sell wine that has been in their cellar for profit if the opportunity were to rise? If I personally have invested “X” amount on a collection and have been holding onto bottles for years, why would I not sell it for a few more $$$? Unless it’s a friend then most likely, I would just give it away…

Your thoughts?

[ 09-04-2002, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: wineman77 ]

Why would you consider it wrong to sell your wine at a profit?

Is it any different than any other collectible?

If you have artwork, antiques, coins, stamps, etc., that you purchased at some point in the past, and now, for whatever reason, wish to dispose of them at current market value, who can say you should be criticized for doing so?

I see nothing wrong with it at all. As long as it is legal to resell the wine. And as long as you are selling wine that you believe to be in good condition (ie: not selling wine you know is cooked or was improperly stored).

I recall Jones (remember him?) saying that a disciplined collector/seller could fund most of his personal consumption by judicious selling.

And if a collector suddenly found himself with a large collection of wine that he no longer enjoyed, it offers a nice way of liquidating the collection and providing the assets to buy the wines that he does like.

Now, why would some people have a negative feeling about profitmaking? Perhaps because they feel that such speculation leads to higher wine prices. And perhaps because it doesn't seem as noble to buy and sell wine than to merely collect wines with no intention of selling.

Wineman77, It isn't wrong. I have always bought wines to consume with family and friends, but now with my daughter heading to college, I have looked in my cellar and come up with some wines that I either have a bunch of, or, it won't kill me to part with. This in turn will go to help with the college costs. I will try to get the best price, certainly, but won't try to rip off people. As others have stated, even if you sell to help deflect future wine purchases, that is your decision.

Well, it's time to get back into the real world and start posting beyond the realm of the PNW Soiree threads!
Wineman,
Absolutely nothing wrong with your business savvy. I don't do it because I can't afford the wines that net that profit, nor the quantities needed to to seriously get into it. Period!
My wines are my babies, only mine unfortunately, nobodies head is going to spin when they see my collection.
Most of the wines I own are not over 50$, some around 100$, many in the 30-50$ catigory. Most will age 3-8 yrs, few are coveted to those in the know, but most are excellent QPR.
I keep thinking I'll score some hidden treasure, but I'll never sell them, because I bought them for me !
Cheers,
Mishy

Selling off old wine that you have lost favour in or cellar excess is o.k. with me.
BUT!
When I worked for an auction house it was the guy's who showed up every year with all their brand new mailing list allocations ready for sale that drove me insane.
THESE P@#K'S who got on these lists which are supposed to be for devout fans of the wine's flip their allo's every year.

IF YOU DON'T WANT THE WINE GET THE F@*# OFF THE LIST AND LEAVE IT FOR THOSE OF US THAT DO!!!

I used to ask these guy's about wine when they would come in and almost alway's got a response like "oh I dont like wine", or "I only drink cheep stuff".

These are the guy's who should be force fed Arbor Mist till they blow up like a grape, and you know what happens to grapes when they get plump and ripe? You got it, they get crushed.

Sorry for the rant.

[ 09-04-2002, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: Freud ]

I agree with the prevailing sentiment above ... there's nothing wrong with it per se, but intentionally selling wine of dubious provenance or condition as "A1" product is an act that should doom one to a very special place in Hell.

Sat-quam, feel free to take the soul of anyone caught engaging in that sort of slimy behaviour!

Freud,
I hear ya talkin' and agree !
Rant on !
Mishy

I remember hearing some rumors a couple years ago that Colgin was so upset at the flipping of her wines that she was considering putting serial #'s on the labels and kicking off anyone who's wine ended up at auction.

The general downside was that
a. it would be too expensive.

b. Everyone would just tear off that portion of the label.

Well,
a. Given the price of these wines it would NOT be too expensive.

b. Etch the damn bottles!

well said, freud. or right said, fred.

Disclaimer: Never sold a bottle for a profit.

Who says? Nothing wrong with it. Your Wine, your decision, your choice. Free country as long as it is Legal. Which I think it is, last I checked.

Someone buys Colgin, Eagle, whatever. They can do as they want with it. Jean Philips also was upset with this, but quickly stated, "Who am I to tell people what to do with their Wine?"

Next year, I will probably be allocated a case of Harlan Estate. And, 3-5 years later if I can sell each @ $500.00 or whatever or even more than that. I am selling 1/2. Six is enough for me to keep for myself.

And, don't forget folks: people that are buying cannot get it & probably will enjoy drinking those Wines.

Time for the devil’s advocate:

Of course you are ticked off at the guys who don’t care about the wine and sell their yearly allocations for big profits. You are not one of them.

If you were, would you voluntarily give up your allocations and profits, all in the name of altruism?

If you did, you’d be an idiot.

There are lots of market opportunities that go to the “lucky” few. You get in on an IPO that not everyone has access to. You find a piece of real estate that you can flip for a quick profit. You’re the youngest VP in the company because your dad owns majority control.

If Speculator Bob was able to get onto the mailing list and wants to sell his allocation, then why shouldn’t he? All he’s doing is cashing in on the difference between the purchase price and the current market value. The winery screwed up by not charging enough for the wine. If Bryant can produce 1000 bottles of wine and sell them for $100 per bottle on the mailing list or $500 on the open market, shouldn’t they sell them to the mailing list for $500? By selling only at $100, they are actually allowing some collectors to buy their wines who might otherwise not be able to afford it. The rest is selling at the market value, it’s just that the winery is losing the profit potential and Speculator Bob is getting it by selling it to Mr. Millionaire instead of the winery selling it directly to him.

Plus, if Speculator Bob selflessly gives up his allocation, what makes you assume that you are going to get it? Perhaps Mr. Millionaire will get the allocation, in which case he’s thrilled that he’s buying a bottle of wine for $100 instead of the $500 he’d normally be willing to pay.

If you were given the opportunity to buy Screaming Eagle’s entire production at mailing list price, and knew you could sell the vast majority of it for a vast profit and keep the rest for free, plus have some extra money in your pocket, wouldn’t you leap at the chance?

Wineman......just what made you think that people perceived it as wrong? And what can of worms did you expect to open?

I am on Harlan's (among others) mailing list and I fully intend to enjoy my wines.

If that makes me an IDIOT, well then I guess I'm on the wrong forum!

By the way, Wine is very diferent than some IPO or stock option. These are purely financial entities while great wine, it could be argued, is the full expression of a wine makers art.

I never said that you'd be an idiot if you drank your allocation.

Only if you gave up your allocation on altruistic grounds of letting a wine enthusiast take your place.

I still think that there is definatly something wrong with it.

They undermine the reason for having a mailing list in the first place. The lists where never meant to be profit generators for those on the lists.

rbond444... Fair question and I will gladly answer it.

I see posting from others which reads, "I would NEVER sell my wine...", "wine is purchased to be drank not to be sold for profit...", "why are these @#$% people selling their wine to drive up prices...", "these people truly do not understand wine and are in it for fast $$$...", "we're paying for these people being greedy...", "they need to leave the wine alone so there is more for us...", and etc... You get the idea...

I don't understand the hostility in many of the postings I have read in the last few weeks... When people respond with emotions first (hostility being one of them), objectivity is gone (hence the "open a can of worms" comment).

There are A LOT of people on this forum... I personally view this community as a support mechanism for sharing thoughts and ideas with a commonality amongst us, which is wine. After all, isn't that what wine is for? Sharing???

As I have said in my original posting, I have been off the forum for a long time and I'm just coming back to it now. Perhaps it's the prices of wine that has been going upward that is creating some of the hostility that I have been reading. Who knows...

I RESPECT the wine drinking community. I appreciate wine and what it has to offer me. Although I am not in it for making money as a goal or to run a business, I do my share of moving a small percentage of my collection amongst friends and auctions. This is how I partially fund my cellar which ultimately allows me to purchase more wine to share with others and enjoy.

Bottom line is, if selling wine for profit somehow became the “wrong thing to do” amongst the wine drinking community… I was going to consider stop selling my wine out of respect for a "good cause"… But so far, I have yet to hear an objective and compelling reason to as why I should stop.

Disclaimer: My profession has nothing to do with the wine industry. I also do not get wine from being on a "list" as I live in a non-reciprocating state.

[ 09-04-2002, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: wineman77 ]

I agree that the lists were never intended to be profit generators for those on the list.

I wonder how many of these resellers are reporting the income on their 1040's. Any accountants out there know if such resellers are required to report their gains?

I believe it would be a capitol gain, and then yes it would be taxable.

As for the question in general, I stated in my first post on this thread that I think it is alright in most instnces to sell your wine for profit.

My main problem is people with little or no intrest in wine hogging up list spots only to flip thier allocations.

Wineman,

Why feel guilty about making a profit? It's the American way.

Freud,

I really disagree with your post.

When I worked for an auction house it was the guy's who showed up every year with all their brand new mailing list allocations ready for sale that drove me insane. THESE P@#K'S who got on these lists which are supposed to be for devout fans of the wine's flip their allo's every year.

*You had the opportunity to get on the better lists early just like everybody else. Why do you, or anybody deserve to be on the list because you're going to drink it and they are not. Most people on the lists do not sell them. But several people do. It's their perogative.

IF YOU DON'T WANT THE WINE GET THE F@*# OFF THE LIST AND LEAVE IT FOR THOSE OF US THAT DO!!!

*IMO, that's sour grapes and elitist.

I used to ask these guy's about wine when they would come in and almost alway's got a response like "oh I dont like wine", or "I only drink cheep stuff".

*I find that possible, but hard to believe. In order to be on the lists early, you had to be into wine. These wines are not advertised, they are only reviewed, so how would someone who didn't like wine find out about them early enough to be on the lists?

*I'm on the majority of lists and for the most part keep my wines. But when I have the opportunity to trade a current Cab for a 90 Cheval Blanc, Chave, or single vineyard Guigal, it's a no brainer.

Hard to believe? Who are you kidding? When these things where getting started I'm sure some guy's talked to friends, lawyers, doctors etc. I personally don't care whether you believe me or not, but I was there. I asked the questions, and I was appalled by the answers.

(edit adition: I also have an ex-brother in law who's got a cellar full of blue chip vino awaiting auction, who I can tell you, doesn't know a stich about wine other than it's value. I think you can figure out what I think about him.)

As for being there in the beginning, I waited a long time to get on some of these lists.

And as I just posted, if you wish to flip some wine down the road, go ahead, you're not who I'm talking about.

[ 09-04-2002, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Freud ]

When I first started collecting wines, it was illegal to resell it. The only financial benefit was to donate it and take a tax write-off, which was generally about 1/3rd of the donated market price.

Now that there is an opportunity to flip wines for a profit, I'm sure there are people who abuse it. There was an article in WS about a person who would do anything (legal or illegal) to get on mailing lists to flip wines. These people give the rest of the people who sell wine a bad rap.

I see nothing wrong with selling wines for a profit if you are providing what you advertise (i.e. a well stored wine that has been cared for). As in everything in life, luck and timing as well as intelligence and perseverence, determine who gets on these lists. I was an avid collector before the cult wineries were formed and got back into it after their mailing lists were closed. But, I do see the opportunity for profit rapidly disappearing. People who are finally getting access to Harlan, in a mediocre year, will not be able to flip the wine for much more than the winery price. And they are questioning the sanity of paying $210 for a 92 point wine. The dot-com'er who were paying $1,500 for Screaming Eagle are becoming as rare as the wines. Pretty soon, this may be a mute point.

I have often wondered the same thing. Although most of the people on this thread see no problem with the practice, if you read the buying and selling board long enough, you will see a lot of flame mail directed at sellers.