The discussion about riesling got me to wondering the following:

Why do publications like Wine Spectator rate TBAs and BAs where the quantity of wine produced is often 50 cases or less (hell, it's frequently less than 20 cases)? And why does the range of scores for riesling seem to be so compressed (e.g. - Kabinett from 86 to 92, Spatlese from 87 to 94, Auslese from 89 to 96, and BA/TBAs from 90 to 100)?

I'm not sure I understand the value that the first offers, particularly in light of the second... if TBAs are available in such limited quantities, at such high prices, and almost inevitably score high for certain producers... what's the point in rating them? Seems like it's mostly a perk for the critic and an opportunity for the producer to "show off."

And aren't we missing the boat by essentially rating riesling in groups by oeschle? Does residual sugar really = complexity = quality?

An exceptional kabinett will give you a lot of pleasure, but an exceptional TBA will bring you to wine heaven. That's why they are rated higher.

And should they be rated? IMO Yes. They are made to be sold, no matter how small the quantity. And consumers want to know which ones are the best to buy for their taste and budget. That's where ratings (and more importantly TN's) come into play.

quote:

Originally posted by Ronnie Roots:
An exceptional kabinett will give you a lot of pleasure, but an exceptional TBA will bring you to wine heaven. That's why they are rated higher.

And should they be rated? IMO Yes. They are made to be sold, no matter how small the quantity. And consumers want to know which ones are the best to buy for their taste and budget. That's where ratings (and more importantly TN's) come into play.

Yup yup.

And no, sugar=complexity=quality is a flawed equation.

BUT... dried out grapes can often offer greater complexity. As does botrytis. And with greater complexity there tends to come greater quality.

The greatest dry white wine I have ever had was last week -- a 1998 FX Pichler Rielsing Unendlich. It is a botrytised dry Riesling and the most complex white wine (regardless of sweetness) I have ever tasted. (I cannot recall a more complex red wine I've tried, either.) The wine, regardless of vintage, seems not to be advertised by any online store. My guess is that far fewer than 50 cases made it into this country. But should I not post a TN on it letting people know this thing is worth the price and hunt?

I'd love to see your TN on the Unendlich. When I visited the FX Pichler winery this was not available for tasting. Very disappointed.

VM

quote:

Originally posted by Old_Winyards:
Why do publications like Wine Spectator rate TBAs and BAs where the quantity of wine produced is often 50 cases or less (hell, it's frequently less than 20 cases)? And why does the range of scores for riesling seem to be so compressed (e.g. - Kabinett from 86 to 92, Spatlese from 87 to 94, Auslese from 89 to 96, and BA/TBAs from 90 to 100?

Even with the small case production or the small number of cases imported into the United States, the wines are available and can be bought. Some of them take more effort to buy, but it is still possible.

With the sweeter Rieslings, I do seem to notice higher scores. However, this happens with other sweet wines as well – Port, Tokaj, Sauternes, etc. In general, I seem to notice that it easier for a sweet wine to garner higher scores.

quote:

Originally posted by Vino Me:
I'd love to see your TN on the Unendlich. When I visited the FX Pichler winery this was not available for tasting. Very disappointed.

VM

Sorry, haven't broken down the TNs from the Offline last week. Here you go!

1998 FX Pichler Unendlich. Oh. My. God. The best dry Riesling I have ever tasted and every bit as good as any Wienbach L’Inedit! Making it either the best wine or tied for the best wine I’ve had in the non-dessert Riesling department. Huge (for a dry Riesling) with hints of botrytis (odd for a dry wine? – can someone confirm that this is indeed what I was tasting?). Apple and pear base fruit with nuances of white peach, citrus blossoms, wet stones, limestone, slate, guava, minerals and a wonderful, viscous petrol. Incredible, long long finish. Though not the most hedonistically appealing, the most intellectually satisfying white wine I have ever tasted. WOTN. 95(+?)

Well, look, I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here to get a bit of rhetorical thinking to occur...

Let me ask the question another way... how many of these uber TBAs have you had, and correspondingly, how many spatleses and kabinetts have you had or purchased in the last year or two?

quote:

Originally posted by Old_Winyards:
Let me ask the question another way... how many of these uber TBAs have you had, and correspondingly, how many spatleses and kabinetts have you had or purchased in the last year or two?

My answers to your questions:
1) I've had a dozen low production BA's, TBA's and Eisweins from Germany and Austria (less than 100 cases) in the last 1.5 years.
2) I've purchased 2 Kabs (3 bottles) in the last 1.5 years.
3) I've purchased 20 Spats (47 bottles) in the last 1.5 years.

Sadly more than half of the BA's, TBA's and Eisweins I've had were not rated by WA or WS. I wish they would review more of these.

VM

Those TBA's are pretty special wines. Individual grape harvesting, grapes botrycized to the size of raisons, pressed out to extract tiny amounts of juice, true nectar.

Definitely worth reviewing and writing about.

quote:

Originally posted by Old_Winyards:
Well, look, I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here to get a bit of rhetorical thinking to occur...

Let me ask the question another way... how many of these uber TBAs have you had, and correspondingly, how many spatleses and kabinetts have you had or purchased in the last year or two?

Since the start of 2006:

1 "Uber BA/TBA/Eiswein" (2 if you count a Scheurebe)
3 Kabinett
12+ Spatlese
24+ Auslese

I also haven't had many DRCs or Grand Cru Leroys in the past year.

Old_Winyards:

You raise interesting points.

First, the issue of reviewing expensive, rare BAs and TBAs from Germany is one we are concerned with at Wine Spectator. I feel it is important to review these wines, but given their high prices and limited availability, I tend to focus more on QbA, kabinett, spatlese and auslese. QbAs in particular are a good introduction for a wine lover who has never tried German Riesling, or for readers to experiment with different estates' styles without spending a lot of money.

It's true that growers who specialize in making great BAs and TBAs are justifiably proud of these wines and enjoy the critical acclaim.

Bear in mind also that certain years are better for botrytis and these years will result in more dessert-style wines. You will see this especially in 2006.

As for the range of scores, Germany has enjoyed a string of excellent vintages and for the most part, the quality of estates that I am tasting is high. Kabinetts from 2005 range from 84 to 93 points. From the 2004 vintage, 93 was again the high point, but the lower end was 78. In 2000, a difficult, rot-plagued vintage, the scores for kabinetts range from 74 to 89, with almost half falling below 85 points.

As you move up the quality scale, the scores are higher. The wines are more concentrated, complex and the potential for longevity increases. Also, I don't just look for sweetness or concentration in the higher pradikats, but balance and harmony, qualities that I believe will give pleasure to the drinker and allow a wine to age gracefully.

That said, I rated some auslesen and spatlesen from 2005 higher than BAs, TBAs and eisweins. Even a few kabinetts rated higher than some dessert-style wines.

Finally, I find the BAs and TBAs impressive and I think we need to review them to show the whole range of what's possible in a given vintage. However, I buy mostly spatlesen for my own consumption. I find this category offers me the best combination of quality, complexity and terroir for my budget and the occasions I have to enjoy them.