I've been somewhat serious about wine for 7 years now and have collected a few bottles that I have been told to age:

Grange 1999
Ornellaia 2004
Various 2004 CDP's

Over the weekend, I was at a nice Relais and Chateaux Inn and had the opportunity to drink a 2000 Cos D'Estournel and a 2004 Domaine de la Janasse CDP. I was somewhat hesitant with both given their "youth" but was impressed with how both wines showed.

The sommelier told me that aging a wine beyond 10 years was not necessary..that wines reached a plateau around 10 years (the good ones) and that one risked letting the wine go past its peak. He is on his way to becoming a Master Sommelier so this I took his advice seriously.

So...I throw out to the board...with all due respect since I have not tasted wines more than 10 years old...why do some preach about aging 20 years plus etc? Furthermore, why do people rely on Parker's scores when wineries set aside specific barrels to please his palate?

bfw

quote:

Originally posted by bfw:
The sommelier told me that aging a wine beyond 10 years was not necessary..that wines reached a plateau around 10 years (the good ones) and that one risked letting the wine go past its peak. He is on his way to becoming a Master Sommelier so this I took his advice seriously.

Ignore anything that sommelier/pest tells you. A blanket statement like that is clearly wrong. How long a wine should be aged is highly variable. Some good wines are ready soon after bottling. Others (ie 1959, 1986 Bordeaux) require at least 3 decades.

WOW! What a bone-headed generalization.
In one sentance your Sommelier just revealed so much of what he hasn't grasped yet.

I completely agree with Board-O's post. All of it.

bfw- One evening spent with local forumite 'DoktaP' will put you head-n-shoulders past your Sommelier. This is something you need to experience to 'get it'.
You won't grasp this from reading books and articles.
It really is just as simple as that.

Congrats to this "sommelier". He just lost all credibilty.

Oh yeah. I would have merged my second thoughts, with the first posting,

IF WE COULD EDIT OUR POSTS!!!

But it helps boost your post count!

more posts = bigger penis

1. The question that needs to be asked, is "Will the wine I'm laying down BENEFIT or GET BETTER with age". Not just "can" it age.

2. And...I think the sommelier's statement depends on how you look at the big picture. In the grand scheme of it all I actually think the sommelier is more correct than wrong. VERY FEW wines in the world market are made to benefit or improve with age these days. Most get worse with age, many simply change with age (often trading out their primary fruit for secondary components). This for me is a loss on one hand and a gain on another, resulting in a net zero win. And then you have the top 1-2% (which Board-O has mentioned above) that you find the holy grails of the wine world, and the reason for all of the negative commentary above.

3. It is with regard to this top 1-2%...Many of the: 1st and second growth Bordeaux, red and white Grand Cru Burgundy from great producers, top notch Barolo, Vintage Port, Classic California Cabs., etc., that the "to be" master sommelier would be very wrong in saying what he said. These are, and have been great wines that quite often as Board-O put it "require at least 3 decades".

4. Lastly...the 1st two wines you mentioned above, traditionally, by all means fall into the 1-2% category I'm talking about. Grange has arguably been the most historical and ageworthy wine that Australia makes. The '76 and '77 are (from what I've read) drinking fantastically right now out of well stored bottles. Ornellaia is "the" posterchild for Italian Supertuscans, and certainly worthy of 10+ years of age in a good vintage. And, I wouldn't be surprised if some of your "various 2004 CDP's" are too.

Caveot Emptor.....I'm also not surprised that your 2000 Cos d'Estournel and 2004 Janasse CDP were showing so well! It has also been quite common in the last 10 years for historically "ageworthy" or "age-needy" properties like this, to have upgraded their equipment, hired consultants, employ new practices and winemaking teams, ripen their grapes longer, and in turn set out to make their wines more accessible on release or shortly thereafter. With the rise in interest of fine wine, and fine dining over the past 10 years, sommeliers like the one you met, and many a critic have shifted the focus away from wine that "needs age" to applauding and rewarding wine that is more immediately satisfying. Most people (even those interested in fine wine) want to have the experience you did while dining! One of immediate gratification! They don't want to have a winelist full of austere, tannic, young 10+ year old wines...they want them to be palatable and enjoyable with the meals and parties they are being served at! This has been a major shift in the focus of modern day winemaking.

And...I would argue that it has become ever more important for the consumer to be able to sort it all out for his or herself. There are as many opinions on wines out there as there are wines to have opnions of. It is up to you to taste what you are buying and make the judgements necessary on what YOU want to cellar, what YOU want to drink, and when YOU want to drink it! Trusting ones own palate is key. And...don't be surprised when you come accross a "traditionally" age worthy wine like Cos d'Estournel and find that you enjoy it (the 2000) where it is now in it's youth! Chances are...that's what the winemaker was intending!

Many of the wines of the old style require a decade plus worth of age. The younger wines [fruit bombs etc.] peak at about 4 -5 years and then start down hill.

As DR drab said, some folks have upgraded equipment and the wines that used to require 15 years, now can be enjoyed around 8 years.

The somm made a generalist comment that in correct. It depends on the wine not the calendar.

I would agree with others that such a blanket statement from the sommelier is inaccurate. I can't speak to the Cos, but it does not surprise me that the Chaupin showed well. I think that is characteristic of the vintage though. The 2005 version would probably be a different story. Also, just because they are showing well doesn't mean they are ready. I would have to think that most '00 Bordeaux have a ways to go before they are mature.

It is a generalization and he should have said that. None-the-less I agree with him -- as a general stmt.
There are always exceptions as there are lots of wines that shouldn't go ten years. He forgot to mention that too, apparently.
I'd think well under 1% of all wines should go more than ten years. And less than that are probably stored correctly to age.

Thanks for all the enlightening replies.

I imagine that I need to experience properly aged wine to "get it". Hence, I will hold off on the Grange if possible.

Just to add some colour to the initial post...the sommelier apparently grew up in France drinking top end Burgundy in his youth. Furthermore, he did mention that some wines will not go ten years and that wines when released by the winery are "ready to be consumed". However, he then told me to let my 2004 Ornellaia sleep a little longer.

So..overall some conflicting statements but the one that struck me..and that many disagree with is that wines do not improve past 10 years. He went so far as to tell me to open my Grange now rather than waiting another 5 years.

bfw

bfw,

The majority of wines made today are made for the consumer to enjoy the wine as soon as they get home from their retailer. If they are a well made wine they probably can age 3 to 8 years, and if they do a really good job 10 to 15+ years.

If you want truly long term agers that go 20+ years, you really need to do serious research. The wineries that make these wines are still out there, but you will need to find them.

quote:

Originally posted by KSC02:
bfw- One evening spent with local forumite 'DoktaP' will put you head-n-shoulders past your Sommelier.

As you know well, he very generously shared a 1990 Chateau Beausejour with me, and others, not too long ago. It was the oldest Bordeaux I have tasted, and a true eye-opener for me.

DoktaP generosity is without end.

quote:

Originally posted by bfw:
Thanks for all the enlightening replies.

I imagine that I need to experience properly aged wine to "get it". Hence, I will hold off on the Grange if possible.

Just to add some colour to the initial post...the sommelier apparently grew up in France drinking top end Burgundy in his youth. Furthermore, he did mention that some wines will not go ten years and that wines when released by the winery are "ready to be consumed". However, he then told me to let my 2004 Ornellaia sleep a little longer.

So..overall some conflicting statements but the one that struck me..and that many disagree with is that wines do not improve past 10 years. He went so far as to tell me to open my Grange now rather than waiting another 5 years.

bfw

I would agree with others that a large amount of the wine produced today is meant to be consumed early. However, for someone to say that no wine gets better after 10 years of age is a ignorant statement.
Someone will have to correct on this, but I believe the French drink a lot of wines early. When I was at a Duval-Leroy tasting last year, the gentleman from the winery said that the 1995 Femme would not improve and should be consumed now. I found this very difficult to believe, but that is what he said.

quote:

Originally posted by Keeno:
When I was at a Duval-Leroy tasting last year, the gentleman from the winery said that the 1995 Femme would not improve and should be consumed now. I found this very difficult to believe, but that is what he said.

I don't know the answer to this either, Keeno. I do know that the bottle I had earlier this year was fantastic.

Depends on the wine, varietal, vintage and appellation for me. I had the 06 Dominus recently and was nice young but will go 15 years.

quote:

Originally posted by mpls wine guy:
Depends on the wine, varietal, vintage and appellation for me. I had the 06 Dominus recently and was nice young but will go 15 years.

Will last for 15 years, or will continue to improve for 15 years?
Many wines improve in the short term, then peak and plateau.
The number of wines that will continue to improve for 10+ years is incredibly small. And if you exclude sweet wines such as port and Sauternes it's much smaller still.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Tong BBP:
Will last for 15 years, or will continue to improve for 15 years?

Important point!

I also agree with what Dave Tong said. There is also a variable in one's taste in that some may prefer wines that are young and some with some age to them. Although most wines do benefit from short term cellaring, whether they continue to improve beyond that is all in the eyes or taste buds of the drinker.

With all the other posts on the subject, Board-O is still the most correct IMO.

A least based on this:

quote:

The sommelier told me that aging a wine beyond 10 years was not necessary..that wines reached a plateau around 10 years (the good ones) and that one risked letting the wine go past its peak. He is on his way to becoming a Master Sommelier so this I took his advice seriously.

So what if he grew up in Burgundy. And so what if he's on his way to becoming a Master Sommelier. The world is full of people who are in professions for which they're not fit. Yes "many" and even "most" wines are made to drink young. Then that's what he should have said. But he didn't. And where did he get 10 years?? Why not nine or eleven?

The 1999 Vega Sicilia Unico has just come on the US market. In other words, it was held by the winery all this time. I guess it's past its peak and the 1968 is pure crap these days.

When you go back to the restaurant, tell him not to send any more money to that correspondence school since their certification is going to be worthless.

quote:

Originally posted by gigabit:

As you know well, he very generously shared a 1990 Chateau Beausejour with me, and others, not too long ago. It was the oldest Bordeaux I have tasted, and a true eye-opener for me.

Really?

I did not know that.

I just worked my way through this thread, and a couple of thoughts.

First, I think Board-O and GregT make good points, and would add to the Vega Siclia that some vintage Champagnes are held 8, 10 or more years before even being release.

I also do not think any generalization thinking is even applicable or relevant here. Two very specific wines were in play here, the '04 CdP and the '04 Left Bank Bordeaux, and these wines have clearly only seen a short bottle life. Someone was wanting to sell these wines in my opinion, nothing more or nothing less.

Always be careful of a Sommelier, Financial Consultant, ( or any consultant) and anyone from the government who proclaims they are going to help you!