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Does anyone know of a comprehensive list on the internet of second wines/second labels, primarily in regards to Bordeaux? If there is a list of second labels from other producers outside of Bordeaux, that would be interesting too.
 
Posts: 3 | Location: Avon | Registered: Feb 13, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I was hoping that someone would reply to this...a wesbite with all the wines would be truly handy.

I normally use Hugh Johnson's Pocket Wine Book. It does not have a list of second wines per se, but for any wine listed in the book, there is also a mention of its second wine (if there is one).

Some of the more famous left bank-Bordeaux second wines (and their parent in parentheses) are:

1. Clos du Marquis (Ch. Leoville las Cases). Arguably consistently the best second wine.

2. Les Fortes de Latour (Ch. Latour). The other top second. Regularly outperforms lesser classed growths.

3. Carraudes de Lafite (Ch. Lafite). Constantly 90+ by Parker.

4. Sarget Gruaud Larose (Ch. Gruaud Larose). Often 90+.

5. Alter Ego de Palmer (Ch. Palmer).

6. Pavillon Rouge (Ch. Margaux).

7. Les Pagodes de Cos (Ch. Cos d'Estournel).

8. La Dame de Montrose (Ch. Montrose).

9. Reserve de la Comtesse (Ch. Pichon Lalande)

10. Les Tourelles de Longueville (Ch. Pichon-Longueville).

11. Le Petit Mouton (Ch. Mouton Rothshild)(made since 1997).

12. La Chapelle de la Mission (Mission Haut Brion).

13. Haut-Bages Averous (Ch. Lynch Bages).

14. Moulin-Riche (Leoville Poyferre).

15. Lalande Borie (unofficial second wine of Ducru Beaucaillou [?] - actually comprised of a former vineyard of 3rd growth Ch. Lagrange).
 
Posts: 988 | Location: NYC | Registered: Jan 30, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I know the question is geared towards Bordeaux, but could we expand the list to include American wines as well?
 
Posts: 138 | Location: Gainesville, FL | Registered: Feb 18, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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cbmac-
Thanks for the partial Bordeaux list. I have used Parker's Wine Buyer's Guide previously (the beginning of the Bordeaux section includes a fairly detailed list of second Bordeaux wines and their primary chateaux). I may have to generate my own list to have it on the computer.

FloridaVine-
Now that I've started looking, I would love to see a New World second label list also. I'll post it if I find anything interesting.
 
Posts: 3 | Location: Avon | Registered: Feb 13, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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American wineries have "second labels" such as:

Mondavi Reserve Cab and Mondavi Cab
Lewis Reserve - Lewis
Caymus SS - Caymus
Insignia - Joseph Phelps Cab

Same concept (on the cab front).

With regard to Chards and Pinots you could look at the vineyard designates as the "prime wines" and the "regionals" as second label.

Hope this helps

michiel
 
Posts: 205 | Location: New York City | Registered: Mar 27, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Second labels of some well know wineries:

Caymus - Liberty School
Stag's Leap - Hawk Crest
 
Posts: 186 | Location: NY - USA | Registered: Feb 07, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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cbmac,

Clos du Marquis... no argument from me Big Grin
 
Posts: 596 | Location: Dallas, TX.  | Registered: Jul 14, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Unfortunately, Caymus sold Liberty School in 1999(?). Liberty School is now associated with Treanna - and the quality hasn't been the same since.
 
Posts: 4974 | Location: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Feb 14, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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On the wine - thanks for the note on Liberty School. I didn't realize that the label was sold.
 
Posts: 186 | Location: NY - USA | Registered: Feb 07, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Croix de Beaucaillou- 2nd of Ducru. I'm not sure about Lalande Borie.

Gruaud also produces La Rosarie de Gruaud Larose. I think this is a private label produced for certain importers that is the same wine as Sarget.

Bahans Haut Brion- 2nd wine of HB

Segla- 2nd of Rausan Segla

Petit Cheval (means "small horse")- 2nd of Cheval Blanc

Baron de Brane- Brane Cantenac.

Haut de Pontet- 2nd of Pontet Canet

Blason D'Issan- 2nd of D'issan. I think they also make Moulin D'Issan, but that caries a Bordeaux superieur designation, not Margaux.

Talbot has one- I can't remember.

Petrus has one- I can't even afford their second wine.

I'm sure there are many others, I just can't think of any more right now.

********
Yes, but I came here for an argument.

Oh! Oh! I'm sorry, this is abuse.
 
Posts: 5516 | Location: Chicago | Registered: May 24, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Check out Parkers Wine Buying Guide. He lists all second lables and gives quality levels.
 
Posts: 23 | Location: Chicago | Registered: Feb 21, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This is the list of Brdeaux 2nd labels I have in my list:
Haut-Médoc
Ch.Lamothe-Cissac Château Fonsèche
Ch.Sociando Mallet La Demoiselle de Sociando Mallet
Margaux
Ch.Brane-Cantenac Baron de Brane
Ch.d'Issan Blason d'Issan
Ch.du Tertre Les Hauts du Tertre
Ch.Labégorce Zédé Domaine Zédé
Ch.Lascombes Château Segonnes
Ch.Margaux Pavillon Rouge
Ch.Palmer Alter Ego de Palmer
Ch.Rauzan-Ségla Ségla
Moulis-en-Médoc
Ch.Chasse-Spleen L'Ermitage de Chasse-Spleen
Pauillac
Ch.Duhart-Milon Baron de Milon
Ch.Grand-Puy Lacoste Château Lacoste-Borie
Ch.Haut Bages Libéral La Chapelle de Bages
Ch.Lafite-Rothschild Carruades de Lafite
Ch.Latour Les Forts de Latour
Ch.Lynch-Bages Château Haut-Bages Averous
Ch.Mouton-Rothschild Le Petit de Mouton
Ch.Pichon-Longueville Les Tourelles de Longueville
Ch.Pichon-Longueville Comtess La Réserve de la Comtesse
Ch.Pontet-Canet Les Hauts de Pontet
Pessac-Léognan
Ch.de Fieuzal L'Abeille de Fieuzal
Ch.Haut-Bailly La Parde de Haut-Bailly
Ch.Haut-Brion Les Bahans de Haut-Brion
Ch.La Louvière La Louvière
Ch.Pape-Clément Le Clémentine de Pape-Clément
Ch.Smith-Haut-Lafitte Les Hauts de Smith
Domaine de Chevalier L'Esprit de Chevalier
Pomerol
Ch.Clinet Fleur de Clinet
Ch.Gazin L'Hospitalet de Gazin
Ch.Lafleur Pensées de Lafleur
Ch.L'Eglise-Clinet La Petite Eglise
Vieux Ch.Certan La Gravette de Certan
Saint-Emilion
Ch.Angélus La Carillon de l'Angélus
Ch.Canon Château Clos Canon
Ch.Canon la Gaffelière Château Clos de L'Oratoire
Ch.Cheval Blanc Petit Cheval
Ch.Dassault "D" du Château Dassault
Château Figeac La Grange Neuve de Figeac
Ch.Haut Rocher Pavillon du Haut Rocher
Ch.La Dominique Saint Paul de Dominique
Ch.La Gaffeliere Cote Migon La Gaffeliere
Ch.La Tour-Figeac L´ Esquisse de la Tour Figeac
Ch.Troplong-Mondot Mondot
Ch.Valandraud Le Virginie de Valandraud
Saint-Estèphe
Ch.Cos d'Estournel Les Pagodes de Cos
Ch.Lafon-Rochet Numéro 2 de Lafon-Rochet
Ch.Le Crock Château La Croix
Ch.Montrose La Dame de Montrose
Saint-Julien
Ch.Beychevelle Amiral de Beychevelle
Ch.Branaire Ducru Château Duluc
Ch.Ducru-Beaucaillou La Croix de Beaucaillou
Ch.Gruard-Larose Sarget de Gruard-Larose
Ch.Lagrange Les Fiefs de Lagrange
Ch.Léoville-Barton Le Réserve de Léoville-Barton
Ch.Léoville-Las-Cases Clos du Marquis
Ch.Léoville-Poyferré Château Moulin Riche
Ch.Talbot Connétable Talbot
Sauternes
Ch.Climens Les Cyprès de Climens
Ch.de Rayne-Vigneau Madame de Rayne
Ch.La Tour Blanche Les Charmilles de La Tour Blanche
Ch.Lafaurie-Peyraguey La Chapelle de Lafaurie
Ch.Rayne Clos l´Abeille
Ch.Sigalas-Rabaud Le Cadet de Sigalas
Ch.Suduiraut Castelnau de Suduiraut
Ch.Yquem "Y"
 
Posts: 41 | Location: Darmstadt, Germany | Registered: Mar 24, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Donot want to pick a fight, but alas I will. IMO (although it got sold) Liberty School was NOT a second wine of Caymus as I understand the term. A second wine is "wine made mostly from grapes from the same property as the first wine but did not make the "cut" for the first wine. When you read some RP notes, he will say "only x% of the grapes made it into this vintage".
This is distinctly different from a wine producer making various labels from various properties (Mondavi owning and operating Arrowood - Chalone making Edna Valley etc.).

michiel
 
Posts: 205 | Location: New York City | Registered: Mar 27, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Michiel:
Donot want to pick a fight, but alas I will...


As long as you want to be exact, NONE of your original examples are second labels. Making a Reserve tier from the same winery, does not make the regular bottling a second label. Second labels are wines bottled under a different name, (Phelps Insignia and Phelps are two lines from the same winery- not a second label).

Arrowood has a second label- Arrowood Grand Archer. Arrowood Reserve and the regular Arrowood Sonoma County aren't the winery and second label. There is a difference. Second labels are made with grapes that the winery doesn't want directly associated with its quality/reputation, but is still of high quality. A second label tells consumers that it was made by the mother winery, but is not of the same standards as that winery. It's kind of like buying from a factory outlet store. You now it's good quality, but not as good as the product sold in the regular store.

******************************
I intend to die in a tavern; let the wine be placed near my dying mouth, so that when the choirs of angels come, they may say, "God be merciful to this drinker!"
Walter Map [Mapes] c. 1140 - c. 1210
De Nugis Curialium
 
Posts: 233 | Location: Aurora, IL | Registered: Nov 13, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Il Duce, since w're at it now. The original Q was, what does second label mean and are there US equivalents?

As far as I know Bahans Haut Brion grapes are Haut Brion grapes that came from same vineyard (mostly) as HB but the juice was not good enough. (same for Les Forts de "Latour" and Carruades de "Lafite" e.g.) I believe same concept applies to the "Reserve" vs "Regular" bottlings in the US. I.e. Caymus regular grapes come from the same acres as Caymus SS. The fact that they have no other name is semantics (and brand positioning maybe)

Please correct me if I am wrong on the origin of the grapes being the distinctive factor.

Your example of Arrowood is good bur wouldnt you say Grand Archer is 3rd label (new can of worms). Actually Arrowood is a bad example because I believe that the grapes comes from over 15 parcels and vary from year to year.

michiel
 
Posts: 205 | Location: New York City | Registered: Mar 27, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Croix de Beaucaillou- 2nd of Ducru. I'm not sure about Lalande Borie.


Grossie, you are absolutely right. I shouldn't have confused things by saying it's the "honorary" second. Lalande Borie has the same onwer as Ducru Beaucaillou, so I associate them in my head. There is no connection. Me saying they are the second wine would be like me saying that Duhart Milon Rothschild is the second wine of Lafite Rothschild...they have the same owner and even partially the same wine, but one is not the second wine of the other.

[This message was edited by cbmac on Mar 05, 2004 at 02:46 AM.]
 
Posts: 988 | Location: NYC | Registered: Jan 30, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Michiel:
Il Duce, since w're at it now. The original Q was, what does second label mean and are there US equivalents?

As far as I know Bahans Haut Brion grapes are Haut Brion grapes that came from same vineyard (mostly) as HB but the juice was not good enough. (same for Les Forts de "Latour" and Carruades de "Lafite" e.g.) I believe same concept applies to the "Reserve" vs "Regular" bottlings in the US. I.e. Caymus regular grapes come from the same acres as Caymus SS. The fact that they have no other name is semantics (and brand positioning maybe)

Please correct me if I am wrong on the origin of the grapes being the distinctive factor.

Your example of Arrowood is good bur wouldnt you say Grand Archer is 3rd label (new can of worms). Actually Arrowood is a bad example because I believe that the grapes comes from over 15 parcels and vary from year to year.

michiel


NO, NO, NO! By your definition of second labels you are correct, but your definition is wrong. I went to epicurean.com and this is the defintion of second labels:

"second label
A term used for winery- or château-produced wines that aren't the quality necessary to be bottled under the primary label. Such wines are generally made from grapes that are either from new vineyards or below top quality because of a substandard growing season. Although not usually as wonderful as primary-label wines, second-labels can be surprisingly good. Some examples of second labels in California include Liberty School from caymus vineyards and Hawk Crest from stag's leap wine cellars. Examples in bordeaux, where such wines are sometimes referred to as second wines, are Les Forts de Latour from château latour and Moulin-des-Carruades from château lafite-rothschild".

REGULAR bottlings when compared to Reserve tiers are NOT second labels. They are tiers within the SAME (primary) label. Please look at your CORRECT French examples above of second labels. Each of them has something in the winery name that makes it different from the primary winery. That is what a second label is. When wines from different tiers are bottled under the primary winery brand name, they are all first labels, just different tiers. It's when the brand name (winery name) is changed for wines sourced from the same area and bottled under another brand name (winery name on the label) for one reason or another, are they considered second labels.

It's not semantics. You have a somewhat correct understanding of second labels, but you want to lump in other wines that are not second labels. The term isn't as broad as you interpret.

******************************
I intend to die in a tavern; let the wine be placed near my dying mouth, so that when the choirs of angels come, they may say, "God be merciful to this drinker!"
Walter Map [Mapes] c. 1140 - c. 1210
De Nugis Curialium

[This message was edited by IL Duce on Mar 04, 2004 at 08:58 PM.]
 
Posts: 233 | Location: Aurora, IL | Registered: Nov 13, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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just think ,
they could have sold them to two buck chuck!! :rolleyes
Cool
 
Posts: 3031 | Registered: Mar 12, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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some ting didn't work!
Roll Eyes
 
Posts: 3031 | Registered: Mar 12, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks to Sandman for that list of French second labels! There are few others I'm curious about, some of which might NOT be second labels:

Ch. La Grange Clinet
Ch. Martinens
Ch. Rouillac
Ch. Valrose
 
Posts: 1637 | Location: Traded Paradise for the frozen Finger Lakes | Registered: Feb 28, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'm a big fan Sarget de Gruard-Larose -- scored a case of the 00 at $19 bucks a bottle. Has anyone out there tried the 00 Les Bahans Haut Brion? Found a few bottles, but no tasting notes and am curious.
 
Posts: 342 | Location: mt, usa | Registered: Oct 02, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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