WineSpectator.com    Wine Spectator Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  Wine Conversations    Screaming Eagle removed mailing list members for flipping
Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Screaming Eagle removed mailing list members for flipping
 Login/Join 
Member
posted Hide Post
I suspect it's thier continuing effort to find price equalibrium. If there is a secondary market it means there are people on the waiting list who would pay even more than the $750/bottle. S.E. would benefit from cleaning out people from the list who are doing the 'flipping' by getting directly to the 'flip-receiver' and then raising the base price, capturing more of the revenue themselves.

The simple way to do this of course is to keep raising the price and letting the flippers fall out but as G.A. pointed out that has imploded on Colgin and Harlan.


Paul Romero (tlily)- Owner, Winemaker, Tour Guide
Stefania Wine
http://www.stefaniawine.com
 
Posts: 7669 | Location: Gilroy, CA  | Registered: May 24, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Each winery has to figure out what's best for them. Back in the days, Harlan kept very close eyes on the secondary market price and eventually decided to push the release price envelop to the $500 now it's sitting at. Result? It's anyone's guess on how much back inventory they are sitting on. At $500, it's rendered buying Harlan like buying a new car, as soon as you make the purchase, you are losing money on your investment. Harlan is in essence in the same class with 99% of all the other domestic wines made today, at least based on the investment theory.

With Screaming Eagle, if they really want to push the price envelop, there is a bit more room left. If and when they do hit the $1,000 mark on mailing list offer, it would be interesting to see what happens. Of course, actual production level would also factor into this conversation, Screaming Eagle production is likely to go up overtime, and the question is how much.

At the end of day, wineries need to figure out how much of all these free publicity and marketing due to secondary market flip is worth to them.

Here is a good case study. Screaming Eagle released a very small amount of 2010 Sauvignon Blanc at $250 a bottle I believe. We had a six-pack OWC of this hammered in our Hong Kong Live Auction back in June for $13,000. After factoring in buyer's premium, the per bottle cost is over $2,500. Now the question is, what should be the release price Screaming Eagle charges for the 2011 Sauvignon Blanc release?


--------------------------
Powell Yang
Director
Clarets Hong Kong Ltd.
 
Posts: 7003 | Location: HKG - TPE - TAO | Registered: Sep 10, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Was it Vince Young that bought the six pack? Woot
 
Posts: 5469 | Location: Aurora, IL | Registered: Jul 29, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
How can SE find people on their list that are flipping the wine? That would cost money in personal and possible legal fees. Can't believe they think it would be worth it. If they do remove people on the list, does it mean that I will finally get some wine after being on the wait list since 2007? I doubt it.
 
Posts: 1136 | Location: The OC | Registered: Oct 18, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
hey...didn't harlan at one point put serial number on each bottle if i recall.....
 
Posts: 2143 | Location: Los Angeles | Registered: May 06, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I've personally talked with a guy at one of the wineries listed above, and he isn't bothered by folks who share their allocation with friends at cost. They do not like flippers, though.

edit--whoops! guess I'm waay behind in this discussion.
Has PH figured it out yet?
It's amazing how long this discussion has gone on and yet stayed civil.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Redhawk,


Stay thirsty my friends.
 
Posts: 3116 | Location: Saginaw, MI | Registered: Mar 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by NY Retailer:
quote:
Originally posted by Gigond Ass:
You cannot flip Colgin for a profit in most cases. Or Harlan unless they get a 100 point score. I'd be surprised if you could flip Bryant as well. There were hundreds of bottles of Scarecrow for sale on the web for cost last release.

Saxum is available but always above mailing list prices. Don't know about the others.

The only wines that can be flipped almost every time are SE and SQN. That's it.

<possibly Schrader too>


This is about as accurate as it gets.

To paint a clearer picture...Harlan loses about 20% when it leaves the cellar door.

Colgin about 30%.

Of course, 99 and 100 point scores are an exception these days.
There is one more readily flippable wine I forgot to add to the list. Marcassin.


--------------------
"One may dislike carrots, spinach, beetroot, or the skin on hot milk. But not wine. It is like hating the air that one breathes, since each is equally indispensable."

Marcel Ayme`
 
Posts: 10227 | Location: The Left Coast | Registered: Dec 01, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Is Kistler flippable any more?


Stay thirsty my friends.
 
Posts: 3116 | Location: Saginaw, MI | Registered: Mar 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Redhawk:
Is Kistler flippable any more?


Not really, after figuring in all the cost, you would be lucky to break even on the Chard.
With Pinot, you would still see a bit of return on single vineyards, but with the amount of Chard you have to buy to get the relative few Pinot, it's essentially a wash at best.


--------------------------
Powell Yang
Director
Clarets Hong Kong Ltd.
 
Posts: 7003 | Location: HKG - TPE - TAO | Registered: Sep 10, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by pyang:
quote:
Originally posted by Redhawk:
Is Kistler flippable any more?


Not really, after figuring in all the cost, you would be lucky to break even on the Chard.
With Pinot, you would still see a bit of return on single vineyards, but with the amount of Chard you have to buy to get the relative few Pinot, it's essentially a wash at best.


Kistler Chards are sitting in several local stores in Dallas waiting to be bought.
 
Posts: 30128 | Location: Dallas, TX & Santa Fe, NM | Registered: Feb 21, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gigond Ass:
quote:
Originally posted by NY Retailer:
quote:
Originally posted by Gigond Ass:
You cannot flip Colgin for a profit in most cases. Or Harlan unless they get a 100 point score. I'd be surprised if you could flip Bryant as well. There were hundreds of bottles of Scarecrow for sale on the web for cost last release.

Saxum is available but always above mailing list prices. Don't know about the others.

The only wines that can be flipped almost every time are SE and SQN. That's it.

<possibly Schrader too>


This is about as accurate as it gets.

To paint a clearer picture...Harlan loses about 20% when it leaves the cellar door.

Colgin about 30%.

Of course, 99 and 100 point scores are an exception these days.
There is one more readily flippable wine I forgot to add to the list. Marcassin.


True about Marcassin, however I would never sell it because it is just too damn tasty. Part of that, however, is because it is relatively reasonably priced. If Marcassin sold to the mailing list for $500 and you could sell at it auction for $750 I would almost certainly sell some. It would just be too expensive to drink. While winery owners can weed out flippers by raising the price so that it matches the flipping price, one can also keep a lot of loyal customers by maintaining a reasonable price.

-Brett
 
Posts: 743 | Location: Novato, CA | Registered: Dec 25, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I think it's a diabolical scheme to lower secondary market supply, raise secondary market prices, and then raise allocation prices to adjust to "market pressures".
 
Posts: 1663 | Location: San Francisco | Registered: Jun 18, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
who gives two shits


___________________________
(FKA: RWSW and redwingstoneware)
 
Posts: 1437 | Location: Land of the Sick Cab Weekend | Registered: Oct 17, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Robert Taylor just wrote an article linking this thread:

WS Article

VM
 
Posts: 12285 | Location: Chicago | Registered: Oct 17, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I think lowering their production will only increase the after market price.
They should do the opposite in my opinion.
 
Posts: 1050 | Location: Chino, CA | Registered: Oct 17, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wineplease:
I think lowering their production will only increase the after market price.
They should do the opposite in my opinion.


They protect the people who really drink their wines.

I would imagine all their wines are numbered nowadays. They only need to look to see on the auction block what serial was put there and who sold it. So what if it goes to 10000$, they put out a message "we only think 300 people really drink our wines, and we'll only give it to those 300"

the lucky few who do drink it will now know they are drinking 10000$ bottles of wine and forces more people to sign up/stay on the list/not flip the wines.

it's a win win no?


This is my sig -> www.brownteacup.com
www.wsqwine.com
(Wine distributor)
 
Posts: 12124 | Location: NYC | Registered: Feb 16, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Associate Editor
WineSpectator.com
 
posted Hide Post
G-Man,

Perhaps surprisingly, the Screaming Eagle wine bottles are not individually numbered ... yet. Part 2 of my blog, next week, will address, among other things, a few tactics two wineries will be employing in the future to track their flippable wines.

RT
 
Posts: 317 | Location: New York | Registered: Jun 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
So a representative of Screagle makes this statement in the article, "People are turning it (the Sauv Blanc) over for profit, for their own selfish greed.”

This from a winery selling $250 a bottle Sauvignon Blanc. Anyone else see just a little irony here? Confused

PH
 
Posts: 15118 | Location: Maryland, USA (DC suburbs) | Registered: Nov 22, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by PurpleHaze:
So a representative of Screagle makes this statement in the article, "People are turning it (the Sauv Blanc) over for profit, for their own selfish greed.”

This from a winery selling $250 a bottle Sauvignon Blanc. Anyone else see just a little irony here? Confused

PH
+1000
 
Posts: 6511 | Location: OC, CA  | Registered: Aug 01, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by GlennK:
quote:
Originally posted by PurpleHaze:
So a representative of Screagle makes this statement in the article, "People are turning it (the Sauv Blanc) over for profit , for their own selfish greed.”

This from a winery selling $250 a bottle Sauvignon Blanc. Anyone else see just a little irony here? Confused

PH
+1000


Profit seems to be turning into a four letter word here in the states. Frown
 
Posts: 30128 | Location: Dallas, TX & Santa Fe, NM | Registered: Feb 21, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by wine+art:
quote:
Originally posted by GlennK:
quote:
Originally posted by PurpleHaze:
So a representative of Screagle makes this statement in the article, "People are turning it (the Sauv Blanc) over for profit , for their own selfish greed.”

This from a winery selling $250 a bottle Sauvignon Blanc. Anyone else see just a little irony here? Confused

PH
+1000


Ditto!

Profit seems to be turning into a four letter word here in the states. Frown
 
Posts: 1899 | Location: Etobicoke (Toronto burb) | Registered: Apr 14, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
While I've never flipped a bottle for profit, I do frequently share my allocations with friends at cost, as do they with me (including some of the wines mentioned in the thread and article).

I wonder what, if any, recourse one would have with the wineries should a bottle shared with a friend, either at cost or as a gift, turn up on the secondary market when the original purchaser made no profit on it, then the winery cut off the original purchaser.


Jim
That's, RedLoverJim to you
 
Posts: 97 | Location: Fort Worth, TX | Registered: Mar 14, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Associate Editor
WineSpectator.com
 
posted Hide Post
 
Posts: 317 | Location: New York | Registered: Jun 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
"Marcassin's John Wetlaufer, whose 2007 Marcassin Vineyard Pinot Noir (release price $125) is priced as high as $645 at a Los Angeles retailer, doesn't actively patrol the Internet looking for flippers. But when someone on the waiting list wrote to say that he had been offered a mailing-list member's allocation of the most recent release at a mark-up, asking if it was OK for him to buy it, Wetlaufer took action. "We sent him a letter saying, 'You don’t have to buy it from him, you can buy it from us,' and we purged the reseller, and we sent him his check back, and he got furious," he sighed. "

oof

witch hunt!


This is my sig -> www.brownteacup.com
www.wsqwine.com
(Wine distributor)
 
Posts: 12124 | Location: NYC | Registered: Feb 16, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
1. No implied contract - unless they specifically told you this year that your allocation will not be reduced if you flip the wines and now change their mind - in which case you could at least argue you bought your allocation based on that and either there was an implied contract or the winery should be estopped from changing courses. Course of conduct will not be sufficient IMO unless they specifically told you that wine could be flipped.

2. They can certainly reduce allocations for whatever reason they want, including flipping

3. As long as they are not refusing to sell on the basis of race, gender, age or disability - they can basically sell or not sell to whoever they want on whatever terms they want - assuming that all high end wineries have not gotten together in a secret room and (a) agreed on how to price their wines; (b) agreed to impose restrictive purchasing terms on consumers; or (c) divided the market geographically and limited sales.

I am not an anti-trust lawyer (1 class 16-17 years ago in law school hardly gives me much additional insight), but that is where I fall on this issue. Obviously whether I think it is a good business practice on their part is a totally different story and I stopped buying from a number of wineries when I did not like how they were doing their allocations.
 
Posts: 5962 | Location: South Florida | Registered: Dec 30, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2 3 4 5 6  
 

WineSpectator.com    Wine Spectator Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  Wine Conversations    Screaming Eagle removed mailing list members for flipping

© Wine Spectator 2013