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Member |
I'm not here to start a war...just want to know if there is an existing thread that will tell me who makes their brunelli in traditional botti style and who uses the modern barrique style. I wish that JS would write an article on the subject, with listings of same. I loved it when I visited Marchesato degli Aleramici and found that they just installed new cement tanks to go along with their 500l and 700l botti.
Thanks. @ "...I could drink a case of you..." Joni Mitchell |
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asv - I don't know if there is an all-encompassing list to be found. I can list the ones that I know (and have visited to confirm). The only caveat is that some have a blended style (i.e. some aging in botti and some time in barrique)
ModernAll Barrique Poggio Antico Altero Cupano Siro Pacenti CdN Cerretalto CdN Tenuta Nuova Caparzo La Casa Blended Some time in barrique and botti CdN Normale (white label) Fuligni Costanti Altesino Montosoli Banfi Poggio 'all Mura Camigliano Gualto Traditional All Slavonian Oak Botti Salvioni Col d'Orcia Soldera San Marco Pinino Poggio di Soto Barbi Biondi Santi Argiano Livio Sasseti Pertimali Altesino Normale and Riserva Caparzo Normale and Riserva Poggio Antico Normale and Riserva Banfi Normale and Poggio 'All Oro Camigliano Ciacci Picolomini Baricci I can confirm these producers since I have visited them. I am sure others can chime in with additional info. Also, some of this is from memory so there could be a few mistakes. This message has been edited. Last edited by: Longboarder, |
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As far as I know, Banfi's Poggio all'Oro Riserva spends its time in barrique, not botti.
More barriqued wine: Fanti Some barrique, some botti (or large French oak): Uccelliera (normale and Riserva) Antinori Pian delle Vigne (I'm pretty sure about this one) Gianni Brunelli (pretty sure about this one too) Donatella Cinelli Colombini Mastrojanni Slavonian Oak Botti: Lisini (normale and Ugolaia) Canalicchio di Sopra Sesta di Sopra I'll post more later when I get time. This message has been edited. Last edited by: futronic, |
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I was bored this morning.
Barrique only: Castiglion del Bosco Coldisole Il Palazzone Il Paradiso di Frassina Il Poggiolo La Magia La Togata (Tenuta Carlina) Piancornello Angelini Vigna Spuntali Some barrique, some botti: Agostina Pieri Campogiovanni Riserva Il Quercione Casanuova delle Cerbaie Riserva Cassiano-Colombaio Riserva Frescobaldi Castelgiocondo Castelli Martinozzi Riserva Romitorio Collemattoni Riserva Fattoi Mocali Salicutti Talenti Angelini Normale Silvio Nardi All botti: Abbadia Ardenga Armilla Campogiovanni Normale Canalicchio Canneta Cantina di Montalcino Bonacchi Capanna Casanuova delle Cerbaie Normale Cassiano-Colombaio Normale and Vigna del Colombaiolo Castello Martinozzi Normale Cerbaiona Collemattoni Normale Donna Olga La Fiorita La Fornace La Fortuna La Gerla Le Chiuse La Rasina Le Gode Le Presi Livio Sassetti Pian dell'Orino Greppone Mazzi La Fuga Vitanza |
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LB: Maybe we should tally all that stuff into one list.
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Right from Carpazo's site it says their regular and reserve BDM is aged:
Live, love and eat |
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You guys are amazing! I knew that I could count on you.
Thanks so very much. @ "...I could drink a case of you..." Joni Mitchell |
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Btw, not to speak for Suckling, but in the past he's made comments to the effect that the whole modern-vs.-traditional question is... boring - I think was the word he used. His point seemed to be that the real issue is quality. I mention this only to point out that it's unlikely that he would ever draw lines such as these in an article.
For my own part, I find it fascinating. Most people (as evidenced here) use the botti vs. barrique as the yardstick (as it is clearly the easiest to track), but a case could also be made for a) degree of extraction, and b) clonal selection - both of which effect the resultant color of the wine. Valdicava is one that comes to mind which has made a conscious decision to plant clones that produce a darker color. Some (Galloni and IWC, to note) consider the dark color to be 'atypical' and therefore 'modern.' I realize I'm clouding the issue, but I remember a list similar to this in which Daniel Fulton (if my memory serves me) labelled Fanti as "ultra-modern" for their use of barrique, but also due to the high extraction and dark color. This makes a lot of sense to me. Even within the category of 'blends' (barrique and botti), the styles can be wildly different. Taste a Fuligni Riserva (quite delicate, floral, refreshing) next to a Silvio Nardi Manachiara (dark, viscous, and chocalatey), and you might be surprised that they're considered similar in the modern-vs.-traditional discussion. Again, sorry to complicate the issue, but I personally find it intellectually thrilling... not to mention hedonistically satisfying.  De gustibus non est disputandum. |
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Also, a big thanks to Longboarder and futronic. Impressive lists, and even where there are questions/discrepancies, it gives us some place to start. I dig it.
De gustibus non est disputandum. |
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Bravo! The barrel selections don't tell the half. As another example, Col d'Orcia ("traditional") and La Togata ("modern") would probably seem to be stylistically reverse (i.e. modern and traditional, respectively) in a tasting. |
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I can't remember who said it, but it was Soldera or Biondi Santi who said, you should be able to see your fingers through the wine on the other side of the glass, to be a true Brunello. |
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That's right: Gianfranco Soldera believes you should be able to see your fingernail behind a glass of BdM, and Franco Biondi Santi believes that barriques should be 'abolished,' among other restrictions. If Fanti is considered 'ultra-modern,' Soldera and Biondi-Santi should probably be considered 'ultra-traditional.' De gustibus non est disputandum. |
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stickman:
While I agree that the traditional vs. modern - which is better/what is really Brunello approach can be boring at times, I don't think there's any harm in discussing various production techniques. While the list(s) above do not include *all* the producers in Montalcino, it's still a pretty good selection of them. Breaking them into the three categories - all barrique, some barrique/botti, all botti is a good start. As you stated, there are varying styles within these ranges. No surprise, since the Brunello spectrum is one giant gradient. That said, it's a good start with respect to providing expectations as to what they'll get in the glass. As long as it tastes like Sangiovese from Montalcino, that's what matters to me. chadd: I don't know how Col d'Orcia's Brunello would come across as stylistically modern in a tasting - especially when considering their Poggio al Vento. Maybe I misread your post. |
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Interesting comments, Stickman. I don't think keeping track of production techniques is very easy for the average person. It's one of the reasons why I think the modern vs. traditional discussions never end. But as you point out, there's more to a wine than the type of casket/wood used. At the end of the day, though, I have to rely on my own palate to figure out where a wine sits on the whole modern/traditional spectrum. |
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I posed the original question because I have found that the "traditional" styles seem more delicate and soft, while the "modern" style seems more like chewy, big bruisers. Yeah, maybe I'm generalizing, but I have not consumed as much bdm as most of you here. Am I off the mark? Should I have re-worded the post to ask about delicate vs. not so?
@ "...I could drink a case of you..." Joni Mitchell |
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Longboarder nailed it....Besides Brunello
means "nice dark one" which clearly implicates the traditional style..... "A bottle of wine contains more advice then any self help book in the world" |
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This has been an excellent discussion. Thanks to all those that have contributed. The real question is "Do you enjoy the wine?" If the answer is yes, then the question of modern vs. traditional is mute. Personally, the nuances of the different styles can be captivating. I suggest you taste the wines blind to remove the "prejudice" of knowing whether the producer is modern or traditional. I personally enjoy many different producers, but if push comes to shove, the traditional style would be my preference.
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I was saying that if you were to taste the La Togata and the Col d'Orcia side by side, and then categorize one as traditional and one as modern, I'd guess that most would find the Col d'Orcia more "modern" than the La Togata, yet the La Togata is the "modern" one (based on barrique usage). Yes, the '95 Poggio al Vento remains a benchmark Brunello di Montalcino for me, just perfect. Didn't strike me as particularly traditional, but I guess that's a matter of definition. Now Biondi-Santi, that's traditional styling, IMO, and Casanova di Neri Tenuta Nuova, modern styling. Everything else falls on a continuum inbetween! Today I drank the '01 La Campana (www.grailwineselections.com) and it was just rockin'. Stylistically, right in the middle, perhaps with just a hair more traditional elements, but gorgeous all the same. |
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Senior Editor Wine Spectator |
Not sure why you are making a big deal out of modern and traditional. And you are solely basing it on wood maturation. I don't want to get into it but there are a number of wines in your list that don't use new small barrels and others that do. Moreover, most Italian wineries use botti made from French oak, not Slovanian. I think it all gets down to good viticulture and good winemaking...
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I think the only way for me to settle this is for me to start drinking more Brunello.
Of course, I'm also trying to be much more patient with them, noticing I enjoy those that have softened with age and gotten more nuanced. Maybe if I drink half of them young, and half later... |
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I hope my contribution didn't seem like criticism; I certainly didn't intend it that way. Most discussions of modern vs. traditional begin with barrel selection, and I think they SHOULD; it's the most tangible place to start. I was simply trying to add to the discussion, as I find this stuff incredibly fascinating. Hearing that most botti are made from French oak, not Slovanian, is news to me - news I WANT to know. I'm not of the opinion that it's enough to talk good vs. bad. If you listen to producers like Biondi-Santi and Soldera, or Fanti and Pacenti, etc., their production method certainly matters to them, and the philosophy of what Brunello IS certainly matters to them, so I say why don't we join in and be edified. Learning/discussing this stuff merely adds to my enjoyment in drinking them. What a great time to be a Brunello fan! De gustibus non est disputandum. |
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While I agree that it is interesting to know the production methods of different producers, it is also more important to like their product. I can enjoy a tradional Brunello just as much as a modern one if they are both well made with quality grapes. The other thing to remember with Brunello is that despite the small area of the DOCG, there are many different micro climates and soil types. These often play a bigger role in the flavor profile than what sort of cask is used does. For instance Banfi could never made a copy of Altesino Montosoli no matter what they did in the cellar. Of course some would say that they couldn't with the same grapes.
The point is learn as much as you can, but to not be tied down to any one style."A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Gerald Ford |
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