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quote: I think if more poeple did double blind tastings of some of the cabs in question (montelena, dominus, etc) they woudl very surprised to see what they scored the big wines.
If you really think guys like Laube, Parker et al, don't know what it is they're tasting even in a double blind situation, you're fooling yourself. I'm pretty sure Laube can identify a good many of the wines in question especially when double blind in the WS context does give him specific knowledge of what varietals and even what subregions or appelations he's tasting.
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"One may dislike carrots, spinach, beetroot, or the skin on hot milk. But not wine. It is like hating the air that one breathes, since each is equally indispensable."
Marcel Ayme`
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| Posts: 6942 | Location: The Left Coast | Registered: Dec 01, 2001 | |
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quote: Originally posted by ronmc2: quote: Originally posted by pyang:
Time to look past the scores. Rather than looking at the numbers and making the purchasing decision based on such, take the time to read the actual descriptors of the wine.
If the scores don't make sense, why would the descriptors? If I said "This wine is too oaky for me. I LOVED it! 69 points", what would that tell you?
A tasting note as you wrote would likely not ever come from a professional critic, so it's really non-issue. If we play make believe and say the TN really does exist, the only flavor descriptor I see in there is too oaky, which would be a pass for me regardless you love it or not.
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| Posts: 6662 | Location: Napa Valley | Registered: Sep 10, 2002 | |
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quote: Originally posted by pyang: quote: Originally posted by ronmc2: quote: Originally posted by pyang:
Time to look past the scores. Rather than looking at the numbers and making the purchasing decision based on such, take the time to read the actual descriptors of the wine.
If the scores don't make sense, why would the descriptors? If I said "This wine is too oaky for me. I LOVED it! 69 points", what would that tell you?
A tasting note as you wrote would likely not ever come from a professional critic, so it's really non-issue. If we play make believe and say the TN really does exist, the only flavor descriptor I see in there is too oaky, which would be a pass for me regardless you love it or not.
Nice misdirection & obfuscation. If you like Cal Cab, then you like oak. Back to you. |
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| Posts: 1886 | Location: Mammoth, Calif | Registered: Apr 12, 2002 | |
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quote: Originally posted by ronmc2:
If you like Cal Cab, then you like oak.
Back to you.
This type of generalization does not deserve an intelligent conversation.
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www.ostreoncellars.com
www.winebid.com
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| Posts: 6662 | Location: Napa Valley | Registered: Sep 10, 2002 | |
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quote: Originally posted by pyang:
This type of generalization does not deserve an intelligent conversation.
quote: Originally posted by pyang:
Time to look past the scores. Rather than looking at the numbers and making the purchasing decision based on such, take the time to read the actual descriptors of the wine.
You mean like that one? |
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| Posts: 1886 | Location: Mammoth, Calif | Registered: Apr 12, 2002 | |
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Gang, Its all good, you see Shanken's other publication, The Wine Enthusiast gave it 95, so it balances out! Actually I hadn't seen the 72 pt score, where is this published? I saw the 92-94 barrel tasting, sounded good.
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Watch out for drunk typing, what you say may be permanent.
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| Posts: 445 | Location: Tahoe City, CA | Registered: Apr 17, 2006 | |
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quote: Originally posted by Natester:
Its all good, you see Shanken's other publication, The Wine Enthusiast gave it 95, so it balances out!
Natester, I'm not 100% sure about this but I do not believe that Marvin Shanken is the publisher of The Wine Enthusiast.
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Alta is for skiers!
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| Posts: 2039 | Location: o-HIGH-o | Registered: May 05, 2005 | |
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quote: Originally posted by Natester:
Gang,
Its all good, you see Shanken's other publication, The Wine Enthusiast gave it 95, so it balances out!
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| Posts: 13477 | Location: Dallas TX. | Registered: Feb 21, 2005 | |
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Alta & W+A- I think Natester has some Yellowtail Reserve to sell to youse guys.
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| Posts: 1886 | Location: Mammoth, Calif | Registered: Apr 12, 2002 | |
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quote: Originally posted by pyang:
too oaky
Sounds like a Neal Family wine.
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What kind of crackhouse are you running here?
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I stopped paying attention to JL years ago. I still follow Parker, and have learned to follow the advice of people on this and the Squires BB more than anything. I also use Cellar Tracker, and that has become an invaluable source of info for me. It is really the real deal. Hats off to Eric.
Having said that, I mostly buy Bordedaux for Cab and Merlot based wines. From California, I never bought into the cults, too expensive, and, for the most part, do not even buy into the reserve level any more. There are a few exceptions, like Phelps Insignia, but the doubling in price from say the NAPA bottling to the reserve bottling is not worth the tariff. There are actually some NAPA bottlings that have priced themselves out of reality, like Caymus Napa, now pushing $70 for the off vintage of 03. I used to find the Caymus Napa on sale for $50, more or less, but not for a few years now. I still have 2 of the 97s, but that will be it unless I catch a good vintage back down at $50.
I now look at the Napa level as being around $50/btl and the reserves starting at $100. These wines are fruit forward and can be delicious with a year or two of age to smooth them out. But they can only hold for 5 to 10 years, if that long.
The $50 level and the $100 level in Bordeaux produce vastly supperior value for the money. I will admit that I am biased to the Bordeaux flavor profile, but these wines will normally last at least 10 years and usually 20 to 30 years or longer.
The way I feel right now, I will probably always keep some Napa cab around, the stuff at the $50 level, more or less, because there are time when that fruit forward style appeals to me. Their lack of ageability, IMO, means that I can only keep less than 50 bottles or so at a time, lest they get old and slip over the edge of pleasurable drinkability. I do not have that fear with Bordeaux.
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| Posts: 321 | Location: Dallas, Texas, USA | Registered: Mar 30, 2003 | |
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quote: Originally posted by vintage:
I stopped paying attention to JL years ago. I still follow Parker, and have learned to follow the advice of people on this and the Squires BB more than anything. I also use Cellar Tracker, and that has become an invaluable source of info for me. It is really the real deal. Hats off to Eric.
Having said that, I mostly buy Bordedaux for Cab and Merlot based wines. From California, I never bought into the cults, too expensive, and, for the most part, do not even buy into the reserve level any more. There are a few exceptions, like Phelps Insignia, but the doubling in price from say the NAPA bottling to the reserve bottling is not worth the tariff. There are actually some NAPA bottlings that have priced themselves out of reality, like Caymus Napa, now pushing $70 for the off vintage of 03. I used to find the Caymus Napa on sale for $50, more or less, but not for a few years now. I still have 2 of the 97s, but that will be it unless I catch a good vintage back down at $50.
I now look at the Napa level as being around $50/btl and the reserves starting at $100. These wines are fruit forward and can be delicious with a year or two of age to smooth them out. But they can only hold for 5 to 10 years, if that long.
The $50 level and the $100 level in Bordeaux produce vastly supperior value for the money. I will admit that I am biased to the Bordeaux flavor profile, but these wines will normally last at least 10 years and usually 20 to 30 years or longer.
The way I feel right now, I will probably always keep some Napa cab around, the stuff at the $50 level, more or less, because there are time when that fruit forward style appeals to me. Their lack of ageability, IMO, means that I can only keep less than 50 bottles or so at a time, lest they get old and slip over the edge of pleasurable drinkability. I do not have that fear with Bordeaux.
JL is getting hammered on the Squires board |
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| Posts: 1405 | Location: Boston | Registered: Aug 14, 2006 | |
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Hey, Laube slammed the 98 Napa Cabs and wineries could barely give them away. Have you tasted any lately? Pretty damn good and after Laube ruined them in the market, the prices dropped to move them out. In other words, he is bad for the industry and good for consumers. Unfortunately, good wineries won't last long if his moronic reviews continue to influence the market.
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I intend to die in a tavern; let the wine be placed near my dying mouth, so that when the choirs of angels come, they may say, "God be merciful to this drinker!"
Walter Map [Mapes] c. 1140 - c. 1210
De Nugis Curialium
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| Posts: 233 | Location: Aurora, IL | Registered: Nov 13, 2001 | |
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As many of have already said - I too recently tasted numerous 2003's and found them to be not that bad. I am not a big fan of the entire 100 point thing anyway but I would put them in a Grade B category.
But like anything else, some were very, very good and others were below par - at least [on par with] Calif Cabs that is.
I am going to several more tastings over the next few weeks and will try to put together a brief tasting report on some of what I felt would be the highs and lows of the 2003 lot that I have tasted to date
Hope this helps.
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quote: Originally posted by spacewrangler: quote:
JL is getting hammered on the Squires board
What a surprise. They think pretty highly of themself on squires.  |
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| Posts: 13477 | Location: Dallas TX. | Registered: Feb 21, 2005 | |
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quote: Originally posted by IL Duce:
Hey, Laube slammed the 98 Napa Cabs and wineries could barely give them away. Have you tasted any lately? Pretty damn good and after Laube ruined them in the market, the prices dropped to move them out. In other words, he is bad for the industry and good for consumers. Unfortunately, good wineries won't last long if his moronic reviews continue to influence the market.
Uhhh the 1998 California cabs were by and large crap. Laube wasn't the only critic to pan them. To describe the vintage as "pretty damn good" is just false. The 2000's were worse, but not by much.
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"One may dislike carrots, spinach, beetroot, or the skin on hot milk. But not wine. It is like hating the air that one breathes, since each is equally indispensable."
Marcel Ayme`
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| Posts: 6942 | Location: The Left Coast | Registered: Dec 01, 2001 | |
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quote: Originally posted by Gigond Ass: quote: Originally posted by IL Duce:
Hey, Laube slammed the 98 Napa Cabs and wineries could barely give them away. Have you tasted any lately? Pretty damn good and after Laube ruined them in the market, the prices dropped to move them out. In other words, he is bad for the industry and good for consumers. Unfortunately, good wineries won't last long if his moronic reviews continue to influence the market.
Uhhh the 1998 California cabs were by and large crap. Laube wasn't the only critic to pan them. To describe the vintage as "pretty damn good" is just false. The 2000's were worse, but not by much.
I agree. The '98 should have been discounted as they were and are average at best. Laube and many others made a good call on this vintage. w+a |
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| Posts: 13477 | Location: Dallas TX. | Registered: Feb 21, 2005 | |
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quote: Originally posted by IL Duce:
Hey, Laube slammed the 98 Napa Cabs and wineries could barely give them away. Have you tasted any lately? Pretty damn good and after Laube ruined them in the market, the prices dropped to move them out..
Where do you post YOUR tasting notes on California wines, Il Duce? I'm sure I'm doing something wrong, but I can't seem to find any tasting notes that you've posted on this website. Do you post them under a different moniker, perhaps? Or maybe you put them on a different website? I'd be willing to buy some heavily-discounted '98 Cabs if you could just tell me which are the good ones. I'm sure they'll be hard to find now, but I'm willing to look. Thanks in advance for your assistance.
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| Posts: 6489 | Location: Vancouver, BC | Registered: Oct 17, 2001 | |
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quote: Originally posted by spacewrangler:
JL is getting hammered on the Squires board
Not any more. I came to the defense of Marvin on what I considered an anti-Semitic(or at least, an offensive) remark & got called an Anti-Semite for my troubles. It's shut down. |
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| Posts: 1886 | Location: Mammoth, Calif | Registered: Apr 12, 2002 | |
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Jist a quick thought about Cali Cabs. Their primary market is the vast majority of American wine drinkers that think they know, but not really. They buy the names they know and like from year to year, names like Silver Oak, which I happen to like, but also things like Opus One, Mondavi Coastal, KJ, and others. Kinda like name droping for the unknowing. They don't take the time to get really involved in the wine thing. Therefore, they are, for the most part, not vintage savvy. So the mediocre vintages do virtually as well as the good ones because most of the audience does not know the difference.
This would explain why Calif pretty much gets away with price increases irregardless of vintage quality.
Am I on track or full of crap? Any other ideas?
joe
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| Posts: 321 | Location: Dallas, Texas, USA | Registered: Mar 30, 2003 | |
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What got me upset on Mark's board is that most poeple jump on JL without even having tasted the wine.
I had a bottle of 01 some weeks ago and thought the wine was hollow. I also had a taste of the 02 and gave it 80 points, drinkable but just going through the motions. Needless to say, I was not a popular person, though I have to say that 8 or 9 other people also had bad experiences with the 01.
It is clear that the winery has some problems.
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| Posts: 252 | Location: San Diego, CA | Registered: Nov 11, 2003 | |
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quote: Originally posted by zmeu:
What got me upset on Mark's board is that most poeple jump on JL without even having tasted the wine.
I had a bottle of 01 some weeks ago and thought the wine was hollow. I also had a taste of the 02 and gave it 80 points, drinkable but just going through the motions. Needless to say, I was not a popular person, though I have to say that 8 or 9 other people also had bad experiences with the 01.
It is clear that the winery has some problems.
Is it supposedly the Montelena Estate Cabs or the regular offering |
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| Posts: 1405 | Location: Boston | Registered: Aug 14, 2006 | |
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Some ssem to take his comments too personally. The only people who should be upset are the people who are affiliated with the winery(s). I looked back as some of his earlier low scores of Beaulieu Vineyard (he cushed them). In 2002, his barrel score for the 2001 BV Latour was 89-91 ("Smooth, with grapey plum, currant and cherry-laced fruit, an elegant style that gains intensity and firms up on the finish. Score range: 89-91 (JL)". Later in Nov, 2004, he scored it a 69 (".....ending with a chalky taste that gets worse with time"). Maybe he is just very sensitive to something imparted by the bottling possibly the cork? I welcome and appreciate his opinion, but I will judge for myself if I like it.
Alcohol...a perfect drug, but a terrible food
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| Posts: 764 | Location: Philadelphia, PA | Registered: Nov 15, 2001 | |
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Spacewrangler,
I was talking about the Estate.
I also offered my 2 remaining 01's for trade for the 02 Lewelling Wight Vineyard for a simple 2 for 2 deal, but alas, no one came forth
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| Posts: 252 | Location: San Diego, CA | Registered: Nov 11, 2003 | |
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Laube has backed himself into a corner for a while now. He's in his own world. It's inconsistent, and all over the board. Whether it is a palate change, palate sensitivity, recalibration of the scoring system, or other editorial motives, I've stopped paying attention. I used to love what he had to say about wine. Now I'm just entertained by what he has to say next. Other Spectator editors have really honed in their skills and focus on delivering something relevant to the reader (ie: Suckling and Molesworth). Laube has pulled away from the pack, and is writing for himself, rather than the reader. Just my $.02, and worth just as much as whatever Laube has to say...
So much wine.....so little time!!!
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| Posts: 6815 | Location: San Francisco | Registered: Jun 20, 2002 | |
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