A restaurant here in Houston that may have the best list in town claims to not guarantee bottles with over 20 years of age. This (on top of New York prices in Houston) makes me want to never eat or drink here.
I can't imagine this is normal practice. When we went out for my birthday, the first wine we got was bad, so he brought out a different, older, more expensive wine and only charged us the cost of the original bottle.
If you're young and conservative, you have no heart. If you're old and liberal, you have no brain.
Sounds like a nice offer on their part after pouring a bad bottle. Cant imagine anyone charging full price for an off bottle at a restaurant. Those patrons would never come back and give alot of word of mouth bad press for the restaurant.
Posts: 5238 | Location: minneapolis minnesota usa | Registered: Dec 17, 2003
I would side with the restaurant on this one. I think that any time a person considers buying an older wine there is a considerable element of risk. There is the old saying that when dealing with older vintages, there are no great wines but rather great bottles. Even under ideal storage conditions, the effects of cork failure and the cumulative effects of past abuse (before the restaurant bought the wine) will be amplified by age.
Whenever I open an older vintage, I am always prepared for the disappointment of an oxidized or over-the-hill wine. Pessimist? Maybe. It's easier to have this attitude if you also don't tell your wife how much you spent on the bottle!
I was a little unclear in my original post. The restaurant I'm speaking of in terms of not guaranteeing older bottles is NOT the same restaurant we visited for my birthday. Sorry =/
If you're young and conservative, you have no heart. If you're old and liberal, you have no brain.
We were on a cruise recently and they had a reserve list with some older wines. They would not guarantee it and it had some signs of past cork issues so I passed. I don't get it. Are they better off keeping it in storage as a trophy?
Originally posted by mitPradikat: I would side with the restaurant on this one. I think that any time a person considers buying an older wine there is a considerable element of risk. There is the old saying that when dealing with older vintages, there are no great wines but rather great bottles. Even under ideal storage conditions, the effects of cork failure and the cumulative effects of past abuse (before the restaurant bought the wine) will be amplified by age.
Whenever I open an older vintage, I am always prepared for the disappointment of an oxidized or over-the-hill wine. Pessimist? Maybe. It's easier to have this attitude if you also don't tell your wife how much you spent on the bottle!
This makes no sense. Why should I take the risk for their old bottles? I'm paying a multiple of cost at a restaurant for a "food" in good condition. You wouldn't keep a rotten slab of meat, would you? Somebody tries to serve me something that can't be consumed, why would I pay for it?
Posts: 750 | Location: Palm Beach, Florida | Registered: May 05, 2005
Agree completely with Star! You're depending on them to produce a bottle of wine in good condition. That's what you're agreeing to buy. You're trusting them to provide you with a bottle of wine that has been stored properly. If I were buying an expensive bottle of wine and was told the restaurant wouldn't guarantee the condition, I wouldn't buy the wine and I wouldn't return.
Just one more sip.
Posts: 25031 | Location: NY | Registered: Oct 18, 2001
Agree with Star & Board-O. I would never buy the high-priced bottle with 100%+ markup and accept all the risk. I remember asking that question about a bottle of 1900 Margaux a local restaurant has on the list. They told me that the risk is theirs (I think it was $10k).
******* Not looking good for next year either.
Posts: 4566 | Location: Chicago | Registered: May 24, 2002
Nolan, what restaurant are you talking about in Houston? As you know, I'm in Houston several days a month, and have been for 20+ years. I have never seen this, and I thought I had dined at every restaurant of note in Houston.
Like Star and others said, I would NEVER agree to that. The entire burden falls to the seller and this is not debatable. If you sell it, you are telling me it is worthy of said price
On a side note, I have had MANY wines 40-80+ years old at Bern's in Tampa, and when they were DOA, they were kindly removed without question or issue.
I had this happen at a place in San Fran a few years ago. I ordered a bottle of 98 right bank bordeaux (can't remember which one, but it was a St. Emilion Grand Cru) and the waiter left for about 15 minutes and came back with the som - who told us that they did not guarantee any wine over 5 years old. Then asked if I still wanted to order the wine. I asked if they have opened any recently and whether they were good. The somm ducked the question, but stated plainly - if its corked we will not replace it. I thanked him and ordered a pint of beer. Nothing on the list under 5 yrs was ready to drink (and what was ready to drink was wayyyy overpriced 3x+ retail is my memory).
I can't remember the name of the place, but if I found myself outside it - I would go elsewhere. A merchant either stands by his product or he doesn't. The deal breaker for me is that they would not even replace a corked bottle.
who told us that they did not guarantee any wine over 5 years old. Then asked if I still wanted to order the wine.
I don't know what to say.
pretty amazing. I think 1/3 of their list was over 5 years old. I wish I could remember the name of the place. The food was rather forgetable as well. The conversation with somm is all I remember from the place.
Originally posted by mitPradikat: I would side with the restaurant on this one. I think that any time a person considers buying an older wine there is a considerable element of risk. There is the old saying that when dealing with older vintages, there are no great wines but rather great bottles. Even under ideal storage conditions, the effects of cork failure and the cumulative effects of past abuse (before the restaurant bought the wine) will be amplified by age.
Whenever I open an older vintage, I am always prepared for the disappointment of an oxidized or over-the-hill wine. Pessimist? Maybe. It's easier to have this attitude if you also don't tell your wife how much you spent on the bottle!
This makes no sense. Why should I take the risk for their old bottles? I'm paying a multiple of cost at a restaurant for a "food" in good condition. You wouldn't keep a rotten slab of meat, would you? Somebody tries to serve me something that can't be consumed, why would I pay for it?
Exactly...part of the reason you pay a premium at a restaurant is the expectation that you don't have to pay for flawed bottles.
Originally posted by mitPradikat: I would side with the restaurant on this one. I think that any time a person considers buying an older wine there is a considerable element of risk. There is the old saying that when dealing with older vintages, there are no great wines but rather great bottles. Even under ideal storage conditions, the effects of cork failure and the cumulative effects of past abuse (before the restaurant bought the wine) will be amplified by age.
Whenever I open an older vintage, I am always prepared for the disappointment of an oxidized or over-the-hill wine. Pessimist? Maybe. It's easier to have this attitude if you also don't tell your wife how much you spent on the bottle!
This makes no sense. Why should I take the risk for their old bottles? I'm paying a multiple of cost at a restaurant for a "food" in good condition. You wouldn't keep a rotten slab of meat, would you? Somebody tries to serve me something that can't be consumed, why would I pay for it?
Well, I guess I'm more sympathetic to the plight of the restauranteur than most.
It does make sense to me. If the waiter told me the restaurant policy was that for most of their wines, they would guarantee the condition of the wine and replace any faulty bottles, but with their vintages older than 20 years, they would not be able to make this guarantee and it's a final sale, I would actually be okay with that. Of course, I can't see that I would ever actually pay that kind of money myself to take that kind of risk.
The rotten slab of meat argument doesn't really apply to wine. Of course, I'd send back a rancid cut of meat. But it's a lot more reasonable to expect fresh food from a restaurant that purchases fresh ingredients from its purveyors daily, as opposed to the equally perishable wines that may be living or dying in the cellar, subject to the whims of leaky or tainted corks, etc. and without any way to check their condition prior to opening.
Anyway, maybe I'm completely out of my mind. In reality, I'd be bringing in my own wine anyway on most occasions so if the wine is off, the sadness is all mine.
Go read 10 restaurant reviews on yelp and see random examples of the general public's thought process. I could see people ordering older wines and not liking sound bottles happening often. I remember a thread on the Squires/Parker forum where some guy went into a restaurant. Ordered a wine, then another, ended up with 3-5 wines and decided they were all unsound. I did not know about that one.
On the other hand, I found myself thinking if g-man spent $800 on that 82 and it was a bust (I mean bad, not a disappointment) he would be fortunate to be in the restaurant and he could tell the owner the bottle was off and should not have to pay for it.
Originally posted by spo: I could see both sides on this one.
Go read 10 restaurant reviews on yelp and see random examples of the general public's thought process. I could see people ordering older wines and not liking sound bottles happening often. I remember a thread on the Squires/Parker forum where some guy went into a restaurant. Ordered a wine, then another, ended up with 3-5 wines and decided they were all unsound. I did not know about that one.
On the other hand, I found myself thinking if g-man spent $800 on that 82 and it was a bust (I mean bad, not a disappointment) he would be fortunate to be in the restaurant and he could tell the owner the bottle was off and should not have to pay for it.
without a doubt i'd send it back!
Posts: 3653 | Location: NYC | Registered: Feb 16, 2007
Originally posted by spo: I could see both sides on this one.
Go read 10 restaurant reviews on yelp and see random examples of the general public's thought process. I could see people ordering older wines and not liking sound bottles happening often. I remember a thread on the Squires/Parker forum where some guy went into a restaurant. Ordered a wine, then another, ended up with 3-5 wines and decided they were all unsound. I did not know about that one.
On the other hand, I found myself thinking if g-man spent $800 on that 82 and it was a bust (I mean bad, not a disappointment) he would be fortunate to be in the restaurant and he could tell the owner the bottle was off and should not have to pay for it.
As w+a pointed out..I'm just glad to have a place locally that will guarantee old bottles. They have total confidence in their provenance.
Restaurants that won't guarantee old bottles might also be trying to get the consumer to absorb the risk of where they sourced them. With Bern's...they bought them, cellared them and guarantee them. That's the kind of place to support.
Granted, even they have bottles so old they were bought secondary...but because of the age of the restaurant...done so prior to the rise in forfeiting.
Originally posted by wine+art: Nolan, what restaurant are you talking about in Houston? As you know, I'm in Houston several days a month, and have been for 20+ years. I have never seen this, and I thought I had dined at every restaurant of note in Houston.
Like Star and others said, I would NEVER agree to that. The entire burden falls to the seller and this is not debatable. If you sell it, you are telling me it is worthy of said price
On a side note, I have had MANY wines 40-80+ years old at Bern's in Tampa, and when they were DOA, they were kindly removed without question or issue.
They don't guarantee older wines at Tony's.
And I had the impeccable wine service on my birthday at Cafe Rabelais.
If you're young and conservative, you have no heart. If you're old and liberal, you have no brain.
I've certainly heard the restaurant stories of people ordering expensive wines and sending them back to show off. Or sending something back because they don't like it, but it's not flawed and is true to type.
I've witnessed first hand experienced winos misidentifying and falsely identifying flaws.
A friend's bistro won't take back a bottle unless it's flawed - by their diagnosis. They also stopped carrying older wines (except Port and Madeira), as they deemed it an expensive headache and not worth it.
It's insane not to take back a flawed bottle.
Only a small percentage of restaurants can justify their massive mark-ups.
Posts: 1133 | Location: Mountain View, CA | Registered: Oct 18, 2001
I've never encountered that policy, and I can also say you can count the number of bottle I've sent back on one hand.
However, the following is a larger problem which occurs everywhere and every year: you order a 1997 Caymus SS and they deliver a 1998....simply put, you order a good vintage and the restaurant tries to substitute a lesser vintage.
Also: About 6 years ago, I ordered a 1997 Caymus SS for $260 but refused to accept when they brought the 1998 Caymus SS, but told the server that he could substitute the 1997 Insignia that was $280, but the Restaurant Manager refused. We finished our dinner, but didn't order any wine. The Manager later came to our table, apologized, and offer a glass of Yquem. I declined but he came back to the table with 3 glasses of Yquem.
The restaurant was Le Cote Basque, and failed during the next year, after being one of the top restaurants in New York for about 50 years.
Originally posted by wine+art: Nolan, what restaurant are you talking about in Houston? As you know, I'm in Houston several days a month, and have been for 20+ years. I have never seen this, and I thought I had dined at every restaurant of note in Houston.
Like Star and others said, I would NEVER agree to that. The entire burden falls to the seller and this is not debatable. If you sell it, you are telling me it is worthy of said price
On a side note, I have had MANY wines 40-80+ years old at Bern's in Tampa, and when they were DOA, they were kindly removed without question or issue.
They don't guarantee older wines at Tony's.
And I had the impeccable wine service on my birthday at Cafe Rabelais.
Ah, I thought you might be referring to Tony's. Their sommelier (Armando) is a friend so never had any issues.
