Since the SVD thread is going off in another direction, I thought I would start a new thread (my first, why not go big).
There are frequent misunderstandings about the makeup and effect of wine additives, so please ask away. With the caveat that the winemakers who post here are artisanal winemakers committed to natural, terroir-driven, vintage-specific products. But like all professionals, we are familiar with all the options. And if we don't know the answer, we have the evil empire catalogs for reference.
Originally posted b Larry Schaffer: You also forgot Vitamin V . .
Yeah, thanks Larry!
quote:
Originally posted by Sandy Fitzgerald: Sop Mary, Let us know where you sit before you tell us where you stand? What's your opinions? Is everything fine unless prohibited by the government?
Sandy, didn't you get the memo? There's a new sop. If someone wants to ask what a wine additive is, how it is used, what the effect probably is, and what the pros and cons might be, it can happen here. As for what's 'fine' that's a decision each person needs to make for themselves.
Posts: 66 | Location: Paso Robles, California | Registered: Mar 24, 2006
Originally posted by Mary Baker: If someone wants to ask what a wine additive is, how it is used, what the effect probably is, and what the pros and cons might be, it can happen here. As for what's 'fine' that's a decision each person needs to make for themselves.
Since you brought it up, which ones do you use in your wines at Dover Canyon?
"Wine is sunlight held together by water" - Galileo
We prefer to use the blood of online geeks as a fining agent, we find that the high protein/fat content, variable lecithin ratio, and low social attraction helps us settle the coarser elements out of a wine while leaving the finer particulate matter available for sensory study.
Posts: 66 | Location: Paso Robles, California | Registered: Mar 24, 2006
Originally posted by Mary Baker: We prefer to use the blood of online geeks as a fining agent, we find that the high protein/fat content, variable lecithin ratio, and low social attraction helps us settle the coarser elements out of a wine while leaving the finer particulate matter available for sensory study.
I would prefer a direct answer from your own list -
Because if I answer that question, then you will all bully any producer who offers information in this thread. Do you have a question about an additive? I think you'll find that most of the producers who post here are avid proponents of natural production and eschew any questionable practices. But it's also likely that many of you may learn that some "additives" are actually modern (and cleaner) versions of ancient practices.
Posts: 66 | Location: Paso Robles, California | Registered: Mar 24, 2006
Originally posted by Mary Baker: Because if I answer that question, then you will all bully any producer who offers information in this thread. Do you have a question about an additive? I think you'll find that most of the producers who post hear are avid proponents of natural production and eschew any questionable practices. But it's also likely that many of you may learn that some "additives" are actually modern (and cleaner) versions of ancient practices.
Agreed. Telling us the ones you use and why would be very informative for us non-winemakers. I realize that some people may think that any "manipulation" is bad, but it would be interesting to hear ones that are used. I'm aware that some Bordeaux producers use concentrators (remove water) and some in CA reduce the alcohol of their wines. I'm really not trying to put you on the spot as I appreciate that you would come on and share info, but at the same time you did open yourself up for a legitimate question.
Why don't we approach it like - I know of some Paso wineries that use X to counteract Y without being specific about who is using them. Not trying to harm anyone's image, just want to learn about the topic you are talking about.
"Wine is sunlight held together by water" - Galileo
In Alice Feiring's book, she refers to commercial yeasts as "adding" aromas or flavors to a wine. Far from singling out Feiring, I think this is a common misconception. Whether it is "native" or "commercial", yeasts are a conversion agent. Their purpose is to convert a sweet fruit juice into an alcoholic liquid. While certain yeast strains are known to possibly stabilize color, enhance floral aromatics, emphasize pepper or continue to function at high alcohol levels, these are simply attributes of the yeast organism itself. If the fermenting juice (must) has pH issues or temperature issues or any number of other variables, the yeast may not perform as predicted. But when the yeast is gone, dead, it has left nothing behind except its carcass (lees). It is not like adding herbs to a pasta sauce, it leaves behind no aromatics or flavor of its own.
Questions?
Posts: 66 | Location: Paso Robles, California | Registered: Mar 24, 2006
Originally posted by Mary Baker: All right. Let's start with something simple.
Yeast.
In Alice Feiring's book, she refers to commercial yeasts as "adding" aromas or flavors to a wine. Far from singling out Feiring, I think this is a common misconception. Whether it is "native" or "commercial", yeasts are a conversion agent. Their purpose is to convert a sweet fruit juice into an alcoholic liquid. While certain yeast strains are known to possibly stabilize color, enhance floral aromatics, emphasize pepper or continue to function at high alcohol levels, these are simply attributes of the yeast organism itself. If the fermenting juice (must) has pH issues or temperature issues or any number of other variables, the yeast may not perform as predicted. But when the yeast is gone, dead, it has left nothing behind except its carcass (lees). It is not like adding herbs to a pasta sauce, it leaves behind no aromatics or flavor of its own.
Questions?
In the Central Coast region, is wild or commercial yeasts more commonly used on Rhone varietals? Does their naturally high alcohol affect the choice?
"Wine is sunlight held together by water" - Galileo
Mary, why then would some chardonnays that have been aged for extended time on their lees show evidence of this practice through specific aromatics? Are you suggesting that wines that have been described as smelling of lees are not in fact smelling of lees, but of some other resulting reaction, component, or aroma?
Vinole, it's a good question. I'm not a pollmonster so I have no numbers, but I can say that we and other Rhone producers have successfully enjoyed native fermentations on Rhone barrels. I would compare wineries to modern artisan bakeries--some of the bread is made from starter, some from store-bought yeast. It's all good, it's all honest.
Brunello, I was anticipating that question. The flavor imparted by stirring lees is a pastry-like effect from the yeast cells. We do that on at least one lot per vintage, sometimes more, as artistic itch may dictate. But the particular yeast strain itself does not leave behind a fairy dust of "floral" or "pepper" or "squid ink".
Posts: 66 | Location: Paso Robles, California | Registered: Mar 24, 2006
Mary, so to clarify, once yeast autolysis is complete and the remains are absorbed into the wine, the thumb-prints, if you will, of specific yeasts are not discernable from one another?
Thanks Mary. And to make sure I understand your answer to Brunello's question, I take it that lees is lees and that different types of yeast do not affect the taste of the lees themselves.
Another question - I was in Paso three weeks ago and was surprised at the higher acidity levels than I am accustomed to from other CA regions like Napa. Is this due to Paso's cool nights, earlier harvesting, or do some producers add acid as I understand is done with some CA wines due to high ripeness levels?
"Wine is sunlight held together by water" - Galileo
Nice question! Any effect of the fermentation qualities of the yeast will be subtle and part of the overall fruit profile. The pastry-bread-grainish qualities in a wine that has spent time on lees is from the dead yeast cells, which are essentially just vitamin B rich hulls of the former prizefighters. When taking your Vitamin B in the morning, can you differentiate between cells known for their perfume vs. their muscle?
Posts: 66 | Location: Paso Robles, California | Registered: Mar 24, 2006
Originally posted by Mary Baker: We prefer to use the blood of online geeks as a fining agent, we find that the high protein/fat content, variable lecithin ratio, and low social attraction helps us settle the coarser elements out of a wine while leaving the finer particulate matter available for sensory study.
I think Mary will do just fine here..........
-------------------- "One may dislike carrots, spinach, beetroot, or the skin on hot milk. But not wine. It is like hating the air that one breathes, since each is equally indispensable."
Marcel Ayme`
Posts: 6192 | Location: The Left Coast | Registered: Dec 01, 2001
