Have I told you guys/gals about that cool website about meat?

I am a physician and a believer in Atkins. It works for me, I've been on it for 3+ years. The initial induction phase is interesting and can be tough, but living on maintenance doesn't require that much work. I eat a lot of nuts, salads, my fair share of meat, fish, and much more.

I drink wine every night. Usually a half bottle, and sometimes more. It probably does affect my weight, I'm sure I could be 5 lbs lighter if I gave it up, but I don't want to.

My LDL is slightly elevated. My triglycerides are way below normal. My HDL is very high. My ratio is in the best possible range. Will I die of cardiac disease? I'm not sure I'll ever know. I'm also not sure that's a bad way to go.

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Yes, but I came here for an argument.

Oh! Oh! I'm sorry, this is abuse.

I can't find any wine with protein!

I’m not a physician, but I do have a Ph.D. and do research for a living. I read Atkins book and unless he is totally misrepresenting the work of others he references, his theories seem creditable based largely on what others have found. I went on his diet 3 months ago and have lost close to 20 pounds, with no significant increase in exercise. I only ditched the wine for the first two weeks, after that it’s a half bottle a day or better, as grossie. I will have my cholesterol checked in a couple more months, but started the diet with favorable numbers. For now I’m a believer and I find it much easier to stick to than a typical low-fat “rabbit-food” diet. I also find that I’m less hungry.

Many people seem to have misconceptions about what the Atkins’ diet consists of; I’d suggest that anyone who contemplates the diet (or feels compelled to criticize it) read his most recent book first. Atkins’ does not advocate that you eat nothing but high fat foods. He does not say you can’t have fruits or veggies. He simply says you need to find the level of carb intake that your system can handle. He also advocates exercise; in fact I think the byline of his chapter on that topic is that exercise is “non-negotiable”.

CabNut

then an offshoot of this original question is

Why has obesity hit an epidemic proportion in the USA in the last 10 years??? There were obese (fat) people before, but now the numbers are stagerring. Why?

interesting question. I always do wonder if it is the overrelaince of carbs no awdays, fast food, processed food, or lack of exercise.

I suspect it is the latter.

i used to be anal about my exercise in hgihs chool and college. Of course, my metabolism was that of a teenage boy, so I could eat a chicken and a steak and a couple of potatoes for dinner and still be hungry. but now as I get a bit older, it is harder and harder to keep it off.

But I wonder if it sthe lack of exercise throughout the day that is the problem. Making time for exercise isn;t really hard, I am jsut lazy and don't do it. But before, I didn't have to.

That rug tied the whole room together

And another thing...If your goal is to lose weight, then the low carb diet does work. It is literally nearly physically impossible not to lose weight if you comply with the diet. Now, whether this weight loss comes at too high a cost (both health wise and lifestyle wise), that's a personal choice.

On the other hand, if you were restricted to a 1000 kcal diet, it would also be nearly impossible not to lose weight as well, assuming of course you complied.

As for the reason for the alarming rate of obesity in this country? I don't think there is a clear consensus on that one yet. My guess is the reliance on high fat/high carb convenience meals (read fast food) and this ridiculous trend in portion size. I find it disgusting that everywhere you go, people are trying to make you buy more, or think you are getting a better deal if you super-size, or that somehow the quality of a restaurant was directly proportional to the size of the platter..."Wow this place is great! Look at the size of this pasta dish!" Many of us are so accustomed to these "huge portions" that if we see what a single serving size of a bagel really was, we would think it was one of the new "mini-bagels" that you find 4 to a container. Frankly, I don't know where it got started, but I think that is one of the worst trends that has hit our culture. Janet's nipple, be damned.

Although I do have to point out that we (USA) are the not the only ones with increasing rates of obesity...nearly every industrialized country is also facing this problem...perhaps not to the extent that we are, but their rates of obesity are also on the rise.

Joe
Grape Lakes Wine Appreciation Guild
www.grapelakes.com

unless i am a failure at reading comprehension, atkins at maintenance level preaches vegetables, meats, fish, and limited processed foods. I have lost over 50 lbs and have much more energy, less heartburn, and am maintaining my weight, very little beer, very little processed foods. Whole grains, meats, vegggies, and fish. how can this be unhealthy?

auto- you're right on. People who criticize Atkins haven't read the plan. To quote kpak:

quote:

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Atkins is bogus as far as I'm concerned. Totally unbalanced and unhealthy way to eat.

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This is not meant as a specific barb at kpak, just a classic quote of one who doesn't understand the theory behind Atikins.

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Yes, but I came here for an argument.

Oh! Oh! I'm sorry, this is abuse.

Although you all may be right about the Atkins diet done as designed may not be unhealthy, the problem seems to be that many on that diet think it's ok to eat bacon covered in bernaise and chase it down with a nice glass of cold half and half.

I suppose in moderation it isn't really less healthy that the crap most of us eat every day.

I can't give up pasta though. I'm not destined to be an Atkins success.

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"One may dislike carrots, spinach, beetroot, or the skin on hot milk. But not wine. It is like hating the air that one breathes, since each is equally indispensable."

Marcel Ayme`

i tried this diet. i figured out i like exercising better. who'd a thunk'd it...

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www.mojorib.com

joe and others-
I'm not a cardiologist and I don't play one on TV, but I do have an opinion FWIW

Well, here it is. I try to apply common sense to science in these situations. Pretty simple, eh

Both Atkins and Agaston are cardiologists who have applied sound scientific principles to their experiences with patients in practice and seized upon lucrative opportunities in an area of interest.

The differences in their posits are minor.

The problem is that the interactions between true cardiovascular health [let alone overall health] and measuring lab values is incomplete. The role of hypercholesterolemia and hypertriglyceridemia is undeniable. The concepts on insulin sensitivity and glycemic index less proven but of interst. Genetics is probably as important as other factors. There are correlations and associations but no guarantees. Some of these are weaker than others. The increasing and significant risk of heart disease play a factor. Fear and ignorance pray on people. So it is smart to step back and think through what is said.

With respect these diets, these offer little above common sense. This was "you momma's advice" years ago. Embellished. Put in a book to sell. Half the pages words' are redundant. Once mom's concise words of wisdom. Now it is fad and gospel. Seems absurd that people now throw out their chest and bellow "I'm on Atkins." Give me a break. Not unexpectedly, the food industry is responding with an array of Atkins friendly foodstuffs. The NEJM and others show no long term benefit of one diet over another. Period. However, the information and recommendations have value.

First some opinions and /or fact.

Obesity is epidemic but doesn't necessarily correlate with carbs. Rather, it is the type of foods offered, the increasing volume of food per serving, and the population's use of food as a psychologic response for stress, and an alternative for thirst that are to multiple factors to blame. No one drinks 6-8 glasses of water. They have a power bar or fritos instead.

The computer age worker is far more sedentary and less clock dependent than our parents or grandparents more physical but routine industrial jobs. This means stuffing food on the run and snacking on what is available [usually high saturated fat or refined sugar foods]. No one sits for a 45 minute dinner and eats slowly to early satiety with small portions. Let alone no longer the time for conversations to find how the child is doing or to teach him/her with spousal conversation of politics, science, ethics.

While exercise is touted, in reality, the few are doing more, while the majority are doing less.

Mom knew best. Just didn't market it.
"
Eat your fruits and vegetables.
Take human bites.
Drink your milk.
No more candy.
Time to go to bed.
Get your exercise."

So what to do?
I take this tack.

I apply the mother test to health. That is what do respectable cardiologists have to say and do? How would they treat their mother? Or themselves?

And I look teleologically at how the human race has developed, understanding that our biologic physiologic evolution pales like the tortoise to our cultural and socioeconomic advancements' hare.

(1)First, the latter:
Our teeth are designed for cutting {meat} and for grinding {grain and fruits, vegetables}. Our body's enzymatic and biochemical tolerance for large carb loads is higher than for fats. We need carbs, proteins, and fats. Most of our existence, the former came from raw grains, nuts, fresh fruits, and vegetables; the latter two derived from animal kill [w slight overlap of course]. None of these were pure or processed. Meats were cooked for cleansing eg to remove parasites, or for preserving. Most vegetables and fruits were eaten raw---only 2 vegetables I know of are worse or semitoxic raw [of course in our faddist ways one is spinach which is marketed as health food] than cooked. To not eat bread is absurd... a staple since time imemmorial. The biggest source of fiber in our diet. Save your heart and get colon cancer. Great. To cut down on fruits. Maybe Tropicana concentrate but not my navel oranges.

Where is the modern diet?
Preprocessed foods, cooked vegetables, concentrated fruit. Little of the past.

(2)Now the mother test.
Inflammation with its' coagulant chains is a component of everything from Alzheimer's to atherogenesis. So some of cardiovascular disease and dementia is inevitable with increasing life span. The prime independent risk factors for atherogenesis and thus heart attack/ischemic heart disease, and stroke/vascular induced dementia have not changed in 20 years; are cigarette smoking, hypertension, and hypercholesterol/lipidemia. Diet and exercise mostly affects the latter.

Triglycerides/VLDL, and Cholesterol/LDL are hand in hand. HMG CoA reductase is the rate limiting enzyme for cholesterol synthesis. Niacin is a cofactor. Cardiologists cocktail is a buzzward appearing in some circles for those who prophylax themselves. Some of it makes good sense.

Exercise- increase HDL, cardiovascular elasticity, metabolic rate. Probably most impt.

Moderation in diet-2000 calories or so, mix of carbs especially w fiber, complete proteins--varied diet--, fats primarily unsaturated.

Vit E- anticoagulant, lowers cholesterol and TG,free radical scavenger as mixed [not solely alpha tocopherol]

Vit C- similar

Fish oil- Mono>polyunsaturated fatty oil- lower Triglyceride

Statin-[HMG enzyme blocker];preferably one w little CMP450 OR 3A disruption on the normal liver- reduce cholesterol,VLDL

Baby Aspirin [1/4 strength]-sufficient to reduce stickiness, antiplatelet activity, clotting, plaques in arteries. Less stomach upset than a whole pill

Frankly, Atkins told me very little new than I learned in my college Nutrition class or from my mom, whether I really listened or not.
Agaston means more to me for Calcium Scoring than his even lesser contribution for diet management.

joe- I too am unfamiliar w Dr. Ornish's diet. But I am wary for reason 1 above. Not in our evolution. Also, I'm sure other imaging was used, proabably cardiac SPECT not PET. PET scanning uses multiple agents, most common flourodeoyglucose and has no role in cardiac imaging. fwiw, MR Angiography still is not prime time, certain not outside academic institutions of worth and in my opinion will die a slow death. CT Angiography will surpass MR with multidetector CT sufficient to do coronary calcium screening and soon enough coronary CTA with far better resolution to match catheter angiography.

[This message was edited by dr.tannin aka x-man on Feb 13, 2004 at 11:18 PM.]

[This message was edited by dr.tannin aka x-man on Feb 13, 2004 at 11:41 PM.]

[This message was edited by dr.tannin aka x-man on Feb 13, 2004 at 11:43 PM.]

The atkins diet doesn't work in the long term.
It is a quick fix. I don't know one person that has kept the weight they lost off.

Dr. T- a very intelligent post, as per usual.

Winebibber- Make it 2 people you now know. Does 3+ years count as long term? I'll let you know when I gain it back. In fact, I'm in the process of taking off a few more right now.

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Yes, but I came here for an argument.

Oh! Oh! I'm sorry, this is abuse.

Dr T, great post!

Joeseph Wu, many thanks for the conversions. I had to re-read my post and now realise that I could have phrased it better.

I was not looking for a consultation (but thanks or your comments), but to get a line on two vastly contrasting approaches to both diet and cardiopathy. Having read both, with the research for both being well documented and supported by large cohorts, yet so diametrically opposed in methodology.

I included comment on my own experience of cutting out the high level of sat. fats. The results were substantial; I also observed the energy levels I experienced from a largish lump of lean meat cf consuming complex carbohydrates. Not meant ot confirm any prejudices, just observations.

I shall have to check on the PET scan bit, it was apparently done in a university lab in Tx.

Thank you both (JW and Dr T), your posts have been very informative.

A shortened version of my impression....yes, you can lose weight with this diet, but as a physician, I find the concept appalling. I had a mentor and a professor long ago who once told me that weight loss was quite simple......burn more calories than you consume....do it regularly, change your eating habits, and stay away from fad diets. I believe that still.

Dick

I do a modified version of Atkins. I don't eat a lot of red meat, mostly chicken and seafood. I do watch my carb intake, because my lifestyle does not afford me the priviledge of spending 4 hours a day in the gym. Hence, I don't eat bread, pasta, rice, etc. I actually don't miss those foods. I eat veggies and salads routinely. I eat less fried foods and if they are fried, my lovely wife uses olive oil. The only suggestion I have is don't eat a bunch of fatty meats (moderation is the key). I exercise approx. 3 times a week, which consists of jogging 2 miles, light weights, and situps (I don't have time for much more...I have a family to provide for). I have lost 25 pounds and feel great. I turned 40 this year. Just had my physical last week and everything checked out beautifully. Much success on whatever you decide and remember moderation and common sense are priceless.

JFJ

Just an observation: If you compare the size of a Big Mac meal here in Sweden with the same version in the US, the American version is somewhat larger. Everything, the soda is larger, the hamburger is larger and there are a lot more fries.

I used to think that we were getting screwed here in Sweden but after reading this thread I think it might be the other way around.

Some may recall that I stated a similar thread a few months ago. I started Atkins about 4 months ago after reading Enoselsa and others extoll its virtues and their success on it.

I first went to my doctor who did some blood tests and said it there was no reason for me to avoid it. My good cholesterol was a bit low but otherwise I was OK for a 47 year old guy at least 30-40 pounds overweight and out of shape.

I lost 12 pounds within the first 8 weeks, but never really followed the diet precisely. Then I went a month without losing anything. I've lost 4 more pounds over the past month. I exercise only 1-2 times a week and continue to drink wine almost every night. I have melons and berries every morning, usually eggs and bacon as well, and sometimes low-carb toast. I've had no rice or bread or potatos the whole time, and only very rarely noodles and then only Chinese egg noodles. I cheat shamelessly at least once a week, usually with cookies or chips or Chinese food or chocolate. My munchie cravings are served by eating salted Virginia peanuts, but not too many.

I went back to my doctor a week ago for more blood tests, and will find out from her this week if I'm hurting myself or not. I'll try to post here again if it shows anything interesting.

And my wife has lost 10 pounds over the same period but cheats more than me

I feel much better and intend to continue with this until I lose another 15 pounds or a year passes, which ever comes first.

For the Record - I think TexasVines was needlessly rough with Kicker. We need more, not less civility around here, and it's no way to treat anyone, much less a pregnant lady.

snow sucks, cold is worse.......