I don't mean to sound offensive to any wine servers here, but is it that hard for a server to have a basic understanding of wine and the wines that are being offered? I've only been interested in wine for a couple of years now - I am strictly an amateur - but I'm amazed at how often I know more about the wines a restaurant has to offer than my server does. If this was how I made my living (how I wish!) I think I could trouble myself to learn the main varietals, regions and important vintages. I also think I could spend a little time studying the wines that my restaurant was offering so that I could speak with some knowledge on the subject.
why are there so many uneducated servers out there??? Last night I went to dinner and my waitress tried to open a bottle of champagne with a rabbit. I literally took the bottle from her and opened it myself. For most people wine is a passion as it is for me, I have made it my profession. Most of the people on here have a passion for wine, but it's not their job. When you ask "why don't they know more?" think about the people you work with...A line cook knows exactly how to cook his dish, how to do it well, and what to put in it. Does he know the background of the ingredients? the history of the region that the ingredients were grown in? what about his actions is making this flavor or reaction from the combination of ingredients makes said dish?
This is why you have wine stewards, sommeliers or just generally knowledgable and passionate waiters. Some people (board-o) and others think these people are enemies....I challenge that some people care more about the guest and their experience than they do about the sales. (end rant.)
_______________________________ There is no such thing as a light night of drinking with max.
why are there so many uneducated servers out there???
It is just not that interesting to them. I remember working in restaurants and trying nice wines with the staff. Comments such as "why would anyone pay more than $6 for a bottle of wine?" were common.
I think we should all remember what was said at the beginning of the article in the magazine. The people who responded to the survey are not your average restaurant patron. We are all folks who are very interested in, in fact have a passion for, wine.
I tend to look at wine service differently based on the type of restaruant, and the emphasis that the restaruant puts on wine. In most places, wine lists are practically nonexistant. Most restaurants are in business of providing meals to the average person, not the gourmet or wine connoisseur. For one thing, they normally can't afford to invest in a good wine list or for space for proper storage. I don't expect much in the way of wine from them and for the most part don't buy wine when I'm patronizing this type of restaurant. In addition, these restaurants are often hostage to governmental restrictions (you wouldn't beleive how difficult the county where I live in Maryland makes it for a restaurant to have a decent, much less great list. Of course some do, but they are the rare exception and they have to go thru unbelieveable hoops to do so) or to their suppliers. It is just easier for these places to either have minimal lists of mass marketed wine (which they have no problem selling to the non-wine geek) or to allow the supplier to make up their lists.
However, I often go to restaurants just because they have good wine lists, especially when I am vacationing or am on travel for business. In that case, I have much higher expectations. I expect the wine service to be good, the servers to have more than just a minimum knowledge of wine, for the glassware to be decent (it doesn't have to Reidel but it does have to be the proper size) and the wine to be stored properly. It they have a sommelier, I espect him/her to make an effort to find out the price range of what I want to spend, what I am planning to eat, and what my preferences are, and tomake sure that what they recommend is in line with the parameters I establish. I don't expect them to try to push certain wines, but I appreciate when they do bring intersting wines to my attention. I also expect them to know what they are out of and to be able to find what they do have. (I forgave the restaurant that I posted about earlier because they were in the process of moving their wine back from where it had been stored while the restaurant had undergone extensive renovation and they had not gotten their rather extensive cellars, of which they had three, completely organized.)
I have no problem with restaurants that have two wine lists, one of which is a reserve list, but I expect to be offered both lists when I am given my menus. Let's face it, most "reserve" lists scare the hell out of the average diner and they wouldn't even think of buying from that list in the first place.
When it comes to excessive markups, I vote with my wallet. If I think the prices is excessive, I don't buy. I try to partonize restaruants that have reasonable markups, but I also recognize that wine is a major cost item, and it is also a major profit center for a restaurant. As long as I feel the markup is reasonable, I tend to buy something that I want and feel that I can justify spending the money for. Sometimes it means I spend $50 for a bottle of wine, sometimes it means I spend $200 or more (not often). But I refuse to spend 3 or 4 times retail for a bottle of wine unless it is something that is so hard to get that the secondary market is getting that. In that case, I REALLY have to want to taste that particular wine.
I often bring my own wine and pay a corkage fee. On the other hand, I understand that some restaurants do not want you to bring wine and set the corkage fee very high, or restrict the number of bottles per table, to discourage the practice. That is their right, but it usually means I dine elsewhere.
Finally, when I bring something, it is usually something that is fairly hard to get (that's why I'm on allocation lists in the first place) and I always offer the sommelier or server a taste, and usually more than just a small pour, because what is the fun of having wine if you don't share it with those who appreciate it.
Finally, I've generally had very good luck with sommeliers. But then I go into a restaurant that has a sommelier with the expectation that I will be treated properly, that the sommelier is there to make sure that I have an enjoyable wine experience, and that they will be professionals. I find that if you set you expectations high, they will usually try to live up to them. On the other hand, if you go in with the attitude that you know more about wine than they do, and that they are just trying to rip you off, you will probably be treated in the manner you deserve.
When in doubt, open another bottle.
Posts: 2242 | Location: Silver Spring MD (Near DC) | Registered: Nov 13, 2001
Considering the results of the survey, will Wine Spectator rethink the classification of awards in the future? Does a list need to feature 100+ selections to gain the "Award of Excellence", 500+ for the "Best Of" or 1000+ for the "Grand" awards? I'm curious because the feedback from the readers of WS (according to the pool) seem to enjoy smaller, well thought out wine lists.
Posts: 2174 | Location: Pacific City, OR | Registered: Oct 26, 2004
I was disappointed that the WS article on restaurant service failed (unless I missed it) to mention serving temperature. I am frequently served red wine at room temperature (72-78 degrees F) rather than cellar temp. The writers missed an opportunity to improve awareness the importance of wine serving temp. in restaurants.
Originally posted by jdo65: I was disappointed that the WS article on restaurant service failed (unless I missed it) to mention serving temperature. I am frequently served red wine at room temperature (72-78 degrees F) rather than cellar temp. The writers missed an opportunity to improve awareness the importance of wine serving temp. in restaurants.
I don't beleive that that was one of the questions asked on the survey. I remember that a lot of us commented that the survey was not nearly as extensive as it could have been. I seem to remember commenting on the issue of temperature when I did the survey, but I may be misremembering.
When in doubt, open another bottle.
Posts: 2242 | Location: Silver Spring MD (Near DC) | Registered: Nov 13, 2001
First, on temperature. Restaurants make decisions on wine storage conditions. Some put in proper temp. control,others do not. It's a financial decision. The wait staff has no control over the temp of the wine, it is what it is.
Except for the very upscale restaurants, finding and keeping wait staff is an on-going battle. Most people seeking that employment in the marketplace, don't know the difference between a Screaming Eagle and a Mad Dog. Many show little motivation to learn.
Both locally and nationally, as I travel, it seems more and more restaurants below to the same tired franchise. The name of the franchise is : Flip that Table. I know of one hot new restuarant locally that pays it waiters bonuses based on the number of tables they flip in 50 minutes or less. Serving wine gets in the way of flipping tables. Menu prices for food or wine seems not to be an issue in this mentality. It(table flipping) like wine temp control is just a policy issue of the management. Plus for the patron, why would you want to order a great red, that needs time to open up at the table, when the restaurant's main goal is getting you out the door long before that can happen? I guess I should add that in CO, byob is against the law. But it's not only an issue here. When drinking reds, I feel forced to drink easy and cheap wines at most restaurants.
I hoped you would address "bring your own" and corkage better. Many restaurants (lots of high-end ones in NYC)will simply not allow it. Since so many Rs charge 2.5x to 3x the retail price for wine and have only 3-6 year old reds in their wine list it simply makes more sense for wine owners to bring their own 10-15 yr old fine red wine. I almost don't mind a high corkage fee of $35-50. If you order god red wines, you are above the $100 Rest price.
In Baton Rouge Louisiana there is a local favorite somewhat upscale restaurant, Juban's, that is very proud of their wine spectator award for their wine list. I have unfortunately found that they do not have everyting on their wine list. I was recently told by a waiter there who had asked the manager about updating the list because some customers had complained to him about the lack of many of the wines on the wine list. The manager replied that it was intentional to have wines listed that they did not have, it made their wine list more impressive and earns them awards. I think Wine spectator should verify that wine lists actually reflect what is available. has anyone else ever had this experience at Juban's or other restaurants?
diju; your comments are very common. I blogged about it on one of JL's blogs not long ago. I've haven't seen it yet at WS Award winners, but obviously you have. The fake wine lists are so common here in Denver it's gotten silly. They may as well advertise in the paper as having Screaming Eagle or Colgin at $50/btl. Then, of course, when you get there they have just sold the last bottle. It never existed in inventory to start with. Where are all the truth in advertising laws?
Diju, we are sorry to hear that you discovered a "fake wine list" in a restaurant that has one of our wine list awards. We try to be vigilant, but we depend on our readers for help. Any other readers should e-mail comments to Wine Spectator at restaurantawards@mshanken.com so that we can efficiently look into any possible problems.
As for those who feel the survey should be accessible to all readers: When we first posted the survey in April and asked for your opinions, we indicated that it would be for a magazine story. Those of you who are magazine subscribers can read it in the Aug. 31, 2008 issue. Those of you who are online subscribers can read it in our online magazine archives--which are part of the WineSpectator.com subscription.
We also wanted to encourage discussion of the topic on the forums, regardless of whether you participated in the original survey or had read the article. We know that many of you are also subscribers, so we wanted to alert you to where the survey could be read in the context of this discussion, though it certainly is not necessary to read it to participate.
We do need to charge for site membership to offset the costs of maintaining and updating the site, including hosting the free forums. But if as Jmatthews suggests, you are willing to pay for the forums, we are certainly willing to investigate other approaches to providing this service.
Dana Nigro Managing editor, WineSpectator.com
Posts: 13 | Location: New York | Registered: Apr 19, 2002
Originally posted by Dana Nigro: Diju, we are sorry to hear that you discovered a "fake wine list" in a restaurant that has one of our wine list awards. We try to be vigilant, but we depend on our readers for help. Any other readers should e-mail comments to Wine Spectator at restaurantawards@mshanken.com so that we can efficiently look into any possible problems.
As for those who feel the survey should be accessible to all readers: When we first posted the survey in April and asked for your opinions, we indicated that it would be for a magazine story. Those of you who are magazine subscribers can read it in the Aug. 31, 2008 issue. Those of you who are online subscribers can read it in our online magazine archives--which are part of the WineSpectator.com subscription.
Dana Nigro Managing editor, WineSpectator.com
Dana,
I understand that the article is part of the paid subscription on this site (and I agree that it should be). Yet you want those of us who pay (in addition to those who do not) to help Wine Spectator in policing these awards?
Rick
Posts: 1394 | Location: Jersey City | Registered: Feb 22, 2006
Our goal with the Restaurant Awards is, by recognizing restaurants with great wine lists, to encourage improved wine service around the world, for the benefit of our readers.
We can't be at every restaurant every week of the year to ensure that the winners are maintaining the standards, despite changes in staff or other factors. But we have far more readers than we do staff, so if you feel that a restaurant is slipping, we want to hear about it. Our goal is to be responsive to you, to investigate, so that if the restaurant is no longer meeting the criteria, we stop recommending the restaurant to you.
After all, we're all in this together.
There have been a lot of great comments and suggestions here, so keep them coming!
Dana Nigro Managing editor, WineSpectator.com
Posts: 13 | Location: New York | Registered: Apr 19, 2002
We can't be at every restaurant every week of the year to ensure that the winners are maintaining the standards, despite changes in staff or other factors. But we have far more readers than we do staff, so if you feel that a restaurant is slipping, we want to hear about it. Our goal is to be responsive to you, to investigate, so that if the restaurant is no longer meeting the criteria, we stop recommending the restaurant to you.
Dana,
I think that the first part of this quote is a bit too tongue in cheek. I also believe that in the rare occurrence that a restaurant has slipped from its 'excellence', that something should be done by the patron. However, this should be the exception, rather than the rule. How often in the past has a restaurant been stripped from its award?
Thanks, Rick
Posts: 1394 | Location: Jersey City | Registered: Feb 22, 2006
I apologize in advance if the following suggestions have been made. It's difficult to keep up with everyone's comments on this topic.
1) WS should partner with Zagat and have the diners vote on which restaurants deserve the awards. I envision Zagat with input from WS to include on their dining surveys 4 questions related to wine service (quality of wine lists, markup, stemware, and overall service) in addition to Zagat's 4 questions on Food, Decor, Service, and Cost. With increased subscription fees, WS print and online subscribers can gain access to Zagat's survey and provide the appropriate feedback. At one year intervals, WS can pull these scores from Zagat and laude the restaurants with the high scores. I would think the diners are sophisticated enough to be able to distinguish between poor stemware and an excellent one or so-so wine service and a great one.
OR
2) Eliminate all but the highest WS Award. This reduces fraudulent activities because the criteria/bar would be much higher and there will be fewer restaurants for WS staff to investigate. After all when WS has a Travel feature, does WS lists all the Holiday Inns and Best Westerns in the area?
Just my two cents ... again.
Posts: 1415 | Location: New Jersey | Registered: Aug 05, 2007
Originally posted by Sandy Fitzgerald: First, on temperature. Restaurants make decisions on wine storage conditions. Some put in proper temp. control,others do not. It's a financial decision. The wait staff has no control over the temp of the wine, it is what it is.
Except for the very upscale restaurants, finding and keeping wait staff is an on-going battle. Most people seeking that employment in the marketplace, don't know the difference between a Screaming Eagle and a Mad Dog. Many show little motivation to learn.
Both locally and nationally, as I travel, it seems more and more restaurants below to the same tired franchise. The name of the franchise is : Flip that Table. I know of one hot new restuarant locally that pays it waiters bonuses based on the number of tables they flip in 50 minutes or less. Serving wine gets in the way of flipping tables. Menu prices for food or wine seems not to be an issue in this mentality. It(table flipping) like wine temp control is just a policy issue of the management. Plus for the patron, why would you want to order a great red, that needs time to open up at the table, when the restaurant's main goal is getting you out the door long before that can happen? I guess I should add that in CO, byob is against the law. But it's not only an issue here. When drinking reds, I feel forced to drink easy and cheap wines at most restaurants.
I beg to differ! The restaurant I work for has 585 selections on our wine list, We unfortunately do not have enough space to cellar temp control the entire list, so some bottles are manually temperature adjusted. The red wines in question are placed in ice bath for 3-4 minutes prior to service. Some of our whites are also stored in a refridgeration unit that is too cold, servers are instructed to pull the wine first, reset with proper glasses, then pour with out putting the wine in to the table chiller for a few minutes. So servers do have control of temperature...not storage, but definitely temperature
