quote:

Originally posted by Board-O:
Too much self-promotion for me.

Sorry to offend.

What you call self-promotion, I call sincerity.

The only time I can recall having my wine tasted by a sommelier before serving was at the Four Seasons in Palm Beach.

We brought an 82 Leoville and a 97 Latour (it was a backup). The sommelier opened both and tasted each before serving.

Afterwards I thought about it. Since we brought the bottles of wine, what was the point in tasting them? He wasn't going to replace the wines if they were bad. All he could do is tell us that he thought our wines were off. Well, that would be our own decision to make (and then order off the wine list).

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Should the sommelier taste the wine before serving it? This was a question in the survey, and I was surprised how few people said "yes". I prefer this. If I order something off the list, I want the sommelier to make sure it's in good condition; why should I have to decide if the wine is corked? If I bring something, I think the sommelier deserves a taste. But that's because I basically consider (hope) the sommelier is an ally. Many people seem to think it's no better than stealing. Go figure.

The key is your hope that the sommelier is an ally. I've had as much wine as many sommeliers and I can pretty well decide for myself whether or not a wine is corked. And whether or not it is corked is whether or not I think it is, not whether or not the sommelier does. I've had them argue. So I usually offer to make a little bet - if they bring another bottle and it's not corked, in other words different, it's free. If it's not different, I'll concede that it's not corked and I'll pay. This has some risk obviously - I may get 2 corked wines or just 2 wines that I can't drink, but for some reason they're usually averse to it.

So unless it's at Chanterelle or somewhere with a top notch sommelier, I really don't want them deciding for me. I'm not a Medici and don't employ food tasters, so why wine tasters?

If I bring a wine, I always offer some. And that's not even so much because of some sense of obligation - if it's something they don't have, it's just fun to share and gab about wine with someone else who cares.

Otherwise, I have to say that the WS restaurant awards are a little beyond what I really care about. The fact is that I'm only going to buy one or two bottles, rarely more. So a list that has maybe 2000 wines isn't as impressive as a list with maybe a few dozen really well chosen wines that cover a number of different areas. I realize that when we go to a restaurant we are paying for real estate as much as we are for a meal, but I'm less thrilled about also paying to store wine that I have no interest in and will never drink.

My fantasy list is to have a few wines from CA, a few from France and not overlooking places like Corbieres, etc., a few from Germany, Italy and Spain, maybe Australia and South America, and a few offbeat things that go beyond something like Gruner Veltliner from Austria. And if I were selecting from Australia, I'd pick something like a semillon, a dry riesling and maybe grenache or mourvedre instead of just shiraz. Besides, if guests are interested in really old wines, those are the guys who are likely to bring their own anyway, and reasonable stems and corkage would make them welcome.

So that may be something that WS might consider doing in the future.

quote:

Originally posted by Board-O:

quote:

Originally posted by AZCat:
in AZ since there are virtually no BYO restauarants

We had a fine BYO dinner at Coupe des Tartes. Ever been there?

I have not. I'll check it out next time I overnight in Phoenix. Tucson has a bistro/wineshop/storage locker place now called "58 Degrees". Two locations actually, east and north. BYO in their private dining room.

This is a complex issue -- I expect much different (and better) service from a five-star establishment than I do my local casual restaurant, but I think there are some universals:

1. Select the best variety, quality, and storage conditions possible given the "tier" of your restaurant. If you are basic/casual, I don't expect 100+ wines on the list -- I am happy with a simple range that offers different varietals at a decent price. If you are top-tier, make sure the breadth of the selection is as broad as possible. In all cases, look for QPR and don't rely too much on mass-market brands (low and high-end)that are being pushed by your wholesaler. Please, store the wines in reasonable conditions -- it is maddening to get a soup-warm red.

2. Train your staff, again to the appropriate level. Casual chains should know the basics -- what is red and what is white, what goes well with certain kinds of dishes. High-end places should have well-educated and interested wine servers and somms. It is frustrating when a waiter/ress is clueless about the $15 Merlot or the somm is unaware of a wine s/he is asking you to buy for >$100.

3. Have decent glassware. I am not a snob here, I just want the basics. Basic places can have dishwasher-safe glasses that aren't scratched up and thick, and high-end places should invest a little to make the experience special.

4. Let the wine sell itself. Wine is at its best when there is a thrill of discovery; it is a thrill to find a basic quaffer that steps up a simple meal or that gem that makes a birthday dinner extra special. Hard-selling, espeically when it is a questionable choice, is very frustrating. See #2.

Thanks for letting me opine on all of this!

A bit off subject

As for teh Ws Awards. The list that folks show on web site etc. remibds me of the adage "the boys with the most toys wins".

I would much prefer a decent list, of good values, that would be available for enjoyment by a diner. the master list could be show to those with teh big bucks and expense accounts. No interest to me. It would be a cold day [you know where] before I'd spring for a $ 100++ bottle of wine, that is over priced.

I love those lists that one could look at and say. "Nice list, I'll buy one of these bottle."

quote:

1. White wine is served at 52F.
2. Red wine is served at 62F.

I think this is a step up from restaurants that serve white wine way too cold, and way to oxidized.

The only problem I see with this is some reds are better at 55F and some whites I do like better closer to fridge temp and some almost above cellar temp. If you are serving by the glass it would not be practical to lower the temp.

As a wine waiter I have a few views on this.

First off anyone in a service position that opens wine out of site is a moron or a thief
Anyone in a service position that tastes wine without being given permission is a theif and should be fired on the spot.
my views on wine lists are slightly different than some, the restaurant I work at has a main list of 400 bottles and a reserve list of 120. When we talk to the vendors they gaurantee vintage and availability because we print very expensive menu's every 6 months, these gaurantee's are very rarely held up. They allocate 100 cases when they only recieve 50 and someone always gets screwed...Is it our fault? Absolutely and I will always do what I can to make it right.
our reserve list on the other hand is printed weekly and is always 99.9% correct and usually has better values than the normal list.
A good wine waiter/Som's job is to give you the best wine/food experience possible, it is unfortunate that there are so many poor experiences but a good som can be your greatest ally and should inform you of the best deals, pairings, and be more accomodating than anyone else because this is supposed to be their main passion. As far as waiters go...most of them know maybe 10-20 wines on the list that they push on a regular basis and I put limited trust in, I don't like to frequent most places that aren't BYO, atleast then the only one that can screw it all up is me.

I know that the Montrachet incident of opening the wine out of sight isn't singular to that restaurant. That whole group, with the same owners, employs that practice (so it isn't the server's fault). However, the pouring a glass is.

That said, I find it annoying when restaurants have a 'reserve' wine list. Put it all together and let me decide what I want to drink.

Just had dinner a Cyrus in Healdsburg and the service was excellent, but expensive. They wheel out a big silver cart of caviar and champagne like the prime rid at Lawry's. Great experience. Second visit.

quote:

Originally posted by sprnplr:
That said, I find it annoying when restaurants have a 'reserve' wine list. Put it all together and let me decide what I want to drink.

Here, here!

And while we are at it...

I don't want my wines grouped by "fruity", "floral", "bold", "spicy", etc. Treat me like an adult, tell me what wines you have, and if I want help I will ask for it. The only acceptable major sub-dividings on a wine list are by color, region, varietal and/or method/classification. Then order your wines in each sub-division in a way that I will be able to understand without having already tasted every single wine on your list (age, price, sub-region, alphabetically, whatever).

Maybe it's the restaurants we go to, but rarely do we ever run into a Som. If I buy a bottle or bring a bottle, it's pretty obvious with less than 20 words of conversation, I know more than the server. And in most cases, the server has never tasted the wine that I'm ordering (if off the list).

My complaint is the 2x and 3x markup OVER retail prices and / or the $20 to $25 corkage for clean stems.

One of the most wine friendly restaurants I've ever encountered (and I believe is on the WS best restaurant list) is Passionfish in Pacific Grove, CA. They have a great list, and prices are something like 15% over WHOLESALE. So, I paid something like $125 for a Peter Micheals 01 Pavots with dinner. Why bother bringing a bottle when the prices are so reasonable? It's too bad more restaurants don't do the same.

quote:

and / or the $20 to $25 corkage for clean stems.

tanglenet,

Do you know of any good restaurants in SF proper with lower? I know of a few, but very few.

I actually don't mind $20-$25/bottle corkage if it is at a nice restaurant and is for expert wine service -- dedicated stems for each wine we open, decanters upon demand, intelligent discussion with the somellier, etc.

I was at Bushi-Tei in Japantown with a group of serious winos last year. Rhone Warrior had brought a 1990 Clos de Goisses and I had brought a 1995 Bolly RD. We asked to have them opened next to one another; the Philloponat was opened and the somellier came over to me (without asking who had brought the Bolly, he just had noted it in his mind) leaned over and whispered to me that he didn't think it was cold enough yet and would I still prefer to have it opened first or should we drink the CdG fist and then come around to the Bolly -- also asked me if I wanted to taste the Bolly first to make a decision. I told him I trusted his judgement and about 15 minutes later he told me he thought the Bolly was ready so he brought us all new stems (so we could taste the two Champagnes side-by-side) and we were then served the Champagne I brought. Our table of 8 was also using about 6 of the restaurant's decanters that evening. And new varietal-specific glasses for each wine. I think they were Riedel extremes, irrc. We went through over a bottle and a half per person, and would often have many open wines at once -- there were times when there were probably in excess of 50 wine glasses in our use (8 of us occupying a spcae set aside for 12 people) with more having recently been cleared away, and the restaurant only has about 50 seats.

IIRC, we were only charged $15/bottle corkage and I remember thinking that relative to the level of service we recieved for bringing our own wines, that this was incredbly low.

If I recall correctly, the Cliff House only charged 15 dollars corkage (maybe 18?) and I received great service. The last time I was there it was my girlfriends birthday and we received great suggestions for food pairing, a decanting and attentive but not intrusive service regarding the wine.

quote:

Originally posted by winetarelli:

quote:

and / or the $20 to $25 corkage for clean stems.

I was at Bushi-Tei in Japantown with a group of serious winos last year. ... there were times when there were probably in excess of 50 wine glasses in our use (8 of us occupying a spcae set aside for 12 people) with more having recently been cleared away, and the restaurant only has about 50 seats.

IIRC, we were only charged $15/bottle corkage and I remember thinking that relative to the level of service we recieved for bringing our own wines, that this was incredbly low.

I hope you guys tipped the guy appropriately.

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleD:

quote:

Originally posted by winetarelli:

quote:

and / or the $20 to $25 corkage for clean stems.

I was at Bushi-Tei in Japantown with a group of serious winos last year. ... there were times when there were probably in excess of 50 wine glasses in our use (8 of us occupying a spcae set aside for 12 people) with more having recently been cleared away, and the restaurant only has about 50 seats.

IIRC, we were only charged $15/bottle corkage and I remember thinking that relative to the level of service we recieved for bringing our own wines, that this was incredbly low.

I hope you guys tipped the guy appropriately.

Again, IIRC, at a restaurant where the average diner spends about $60 for food (before alcohol, tax, and tip) for a 3 course meal, we were averaging about $100/p for food for 5 (or 6) courses. I never saw the bill, but I think we each put in $180, so about $45-$50/p on a $130-$135/p post tax bill, so over 34% on the post-tax amount. (I even called the person who did the bill the next day to make sure we had tipped appropriately -- I was too tipsy to do math by the end of the evening.)

As I said earlier in this thread, when I bring wine to a restaurant, it isn't because I'm trying to rip them off -- and I think that is true for 99% of people who BYO. And when a restaurant recognizes that and treats us amazingly and doesn't try to take us for a ride on a high corkage we will take care of the servers and represent that in the tip (not always at 30%+ but this was an unusual level of wine service, even if we had been ordering the wine off the list).

quote:

Originally posted by winetarelli:

quote:

and / or the $20 to $25 corkage for clean stems.

tanglenet,

Do you know of any good restaurants in SF proper with lower? I know of a few, but very few

Not off hand. We primarily eat out in the East Bay except about once a month in the city. It just seems to me that corkage use to be $10-15 is now $20-25. And I'm only talking about 1 glass per person.

quote:

Originally posted by Board-O:

quote:

Originally posted by AZCat:
in AZ since there are virtually no BYO restauarants

We had a fine BYO dinner at Coupe des Tartes. Ever been there?

Yes - my wife and I had our 10th anniversary dinner there last year and loved it! It's one of only three BYO restaurants I'm aware of in the Phoenix area and the only one I've actually been to (in fact, off the top of my head i can't remember the other two).

quote:

Originally posted by Wayfarer:

quote:

Originally posted by Board-O:

quote:

Originally posted by AZCat:
in AZ since there are virtually no BYO restauarants

We had a fine BYO dinner at Coupe des Tartes. Ever been there?

I have not. I'll check it out next time I overnight in Phoenix. Tucson has a bistro/wineshop/storage locker place now called "58 Degrees". Two locations actually, east and north. BYO in their private dining room.

Perhaps we should offline? Either Coup des Tartes or 58 Degrees - I'm in Tucson about every month or so. Or Mi Nidito for the previously discussed margaritas...I'm really not very choosy.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: AZCat,

When I was at Coupe des Tartes in Phoenix, they had corkscrews sitting out on all the tables. That seemed downright corkage friendly to me.

quote:

Originally posted by mountainman:
When I was at Coupe des Tartes in Phoenix, they had corkscrews sitting out on all the tables. That seemed downright corkage friendly to me.

And IIRC corkage is only $9 or $10. Not a bad deal - a good meal, BYO wine, no wine list of their own (AZ law) and low corkage.

Atlas Bistro, great food, BYOB

The new french cafe' in Fountain Hills did not have a liquor license last time I was there, BYOB and no corkage.

Thanks for the reminder on Atlas. I planned on going there a few months ago, couldn't get a reservation and simply forgot all about it!

I imagine the new cafe you're talking about in F.H. is Boulevard Cafe. Will definitely be checking it out.

Thanks everyone for the tips. I'll have to amend my comment that there are "virtually no BYO restaurants" to "there are a few BYO restaurants" in Arizona.

quote:

That said, I find it annoying when restaurants have a 'reserve' wine list. Put it all together and let me decide what I want to drink.

Seriously. Often times you have to be "in the know" to even ask for such a list. Just put it all out there for us - at least so maybe I know if I need/want to BYO...

quote:

I don't want my wines grouped by "fruity", "floral", "bold", "spicy", etc.

HAHAHA. After spending some time working for a franchise (that shall remain nameless here, but is not hard to figure out) who grouped their wines like this, I realized the ONLY reason for this is the people doing the selling (store, in my case, restaurant in this case) has no clue about wine at all.

train your people to know at least a few of the selections and then you don't need to dumb it sown for the rest of us.

quote:

Originally posted by mona lisa vito:

quote:

That said, I find it annoying when restaurants have a 'reserve' wine list. Put it all together and let me decide what I want to drink.

Seriously. Often times you have to be "in the know" to even ask for such a list. Just put it all out there for us - at least so maybe I know if I need/want to BYO...

quote:

I don't want my wines grouped by "fruity", "floral", "bold", "spicy", etc.

HAHAHA. After spending some time working for a franchise (that shall remain nameless here, but is not hard to figure out) who grouped their wines like this, I realized the ONLY reason for this is the people doing the selling (store, in my case, restaurant in this case) has no clue about wine at all.

train your people to know at least a few of the selections and then you don't need to dumb it sown for the rest of us.

Seriously. It all comes down to creating a wine list based upon purely objective standards. (And number of bottles left, method of acquirement, or anything else that it would be impossible for me to know without working at the restaurant, don't count as "objective standards")