Ah, and if you really want to know my opinion on corkage policies:

A few general guidelines...

1) Corkage should never be more than the least expensive 750ml bottle on the wine list.

2) Corkage of $10-$25 / bottle seems appropriate to me, depending upon the level of stemware and overall wine service I recieve. (eg. If I have unlimited access to high quality, varietal specific, stemware, as many decanters as I want, and expert service then obviously I understand I should be paying more than if I'm just handed a couple of wine glasses.) I understand paying $30-$40/bottle at very expensive restaurants with exemplary wine service.

3) The maximum 2 bottles/table policy is absurd. Why should a table of 8 be limited to the same number as a table of two? For that matter, why limit it at all?

To be honest, of course I bring my own wine to cut down on costs -- but it isn't to save money in an absolute sense, it is because sometimes the quality of wine I want to drink is so high that it doesn't make sense to order it off a list -- I've been to many dinners of 6-12 people where there are many thousands of dollars worth of wine brought. At no time have we ever given a straight 20% tip on the $15/bottle corkage or whatever it is. (Sometimes, the corkage is even waived.) We are always respectful of the details of the dinner and take care of the wait staff that takes care of us.

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Matthews:
Should the sommelier taste the wine before serving it?

I've changed my mind about this over the past year or so. I rarely order wine in a restaurant that I've had before, so I wouldn't have any experience with how a specific wine is supposed to taste. Assuming it's not obviously flawed, how can I know if the bottle is 'off' or if the flavor profile is simply one that I don't like? I now think that having the person who added that wine to their list taste it with me can help ensure that my experience of the wine is up to par.

I never willingly let them sip first any more, whether my bottle or theirs.

Of the few corked wines I have had in restaurants, I have never had the sommelier identify the wine as corked, though they have usually admitted it after I point it out.

Moo

I think flwino pretty much covers it in his initial post.
My pet peeve is when I ask for a recommendation, and the somm points out the most expensive item on the list or one they're obviously pushing (which seems about 80% of the time), especially without even inquiring as to what I'm having.
Same goes for byob places that charge more than $25 corkage. I've never broken a restaurant glass, and I'm pretty sure $25 would cover washing more than 100 glasses. I can't say that I've ever gone through quite that many at a sitting.

There should NEVER be an excuse for not reprinting a Wine List.
For the most part it is a service of the wholesale/distributor. It is a word processor type of file kept at the wholesale/distributor.
How difficult is it to tweak a change or two and hit "print"?
Paper and ink are cheap enough and it is a cost of doing business with the account to secure his/her business.
Any distributor salesperson worth his/her salt has some sort of desktop publishing capabilities to do this if the company gets bogged down.
NO EXCUSES....

I've usually had good experiences with sommeliers and servers, but not always.

At a place near DC called Mrs. K's I had the following experience. After deciding that we would order a glass of Pinot Grigio for my wife to go with her fish, and a bottle of a red for the steaks my son and I were having, I settled on a 2001 Worthy Sophie's Cuvee, but the server came back and said they couldn't find it, but did I want the 2004. I declined and asked for the list again and ordered a 2003 Chateau la Nerthe CNdP. About 10 minutes later the server came back with two bottles in his hand and again said they could not find that vintage. He had called the owner and was told to offer us our choice, at the price of the la Nerthe. He then presented a 1999 Mondavi Cabernet Sauvignon Napa Valley Reserve and a 1999 Louis Latour Château Corton Grancey to choose from. I was sorely tempted to take the Mondavi, but knew my wife would much prefer a Pinot Noir (she does not like Cabernet) so I chose the Corton.

At another place, in SF where one would expect good wine service, especially at a restaurant that has a good list, I ordered a 1999 Pine Ridge Cabernet Sauvignon Stags Leap District. The sommelier came back with a 2000 and started to open it before presenting it to me. I asked to see the bottle first and when I pointed out that it wasn't the 1999 he said it was just as good. Of course the 2000 wasn't on the list, and if I had wanted the 2000 instead of the 1999 I would have said so.

As to sommeliers tasting the wine, I'm not upset as long as I have been presented the bottle for inspection before it is opened. On a couple of occasions the sommelier has tasted the wine and wisked it away and replaced it with another bottle because he said it was corked.

My biggest complaint is the markup for mediocre wine. The prices make it impossible to justify ordering something of the same caliber that I would open at home for a nice meal. Also, I have a question regarding letting the somm. taste the wine before pouring it. How many people have ever had a somm. taste the wine and pronounce the wine as being "off" without question or comment from you? My guess is it doesn't happen very often and this is why I don't see the value in having them taste it before hand.

Was at a very high class resturant in Tulum Mexico. Had a bottle presented to me, and it was correct. Somm proceeded to open foil, and I saw mold. He said its okay. Then pulled out dry cork, and it split. Still said its okay.

I tasted the vinegar, and he said it was okay.

I refused the bottle, and had to wind up takling the five star hotel manager to get wine off my bill.

Obvioulsy somm was lacking wine and customer service skills.

PS; Did not order another bottle due to treatment we received.

quote:

Originally posted by flwino:
Was...in...Mexico. Had a bottle presented to me, and it was correct...

It has been my experience that if you are in Mexico and no part of the bottle says "Cerveza" on it, then it is not, in fact, correct.

quote:

Originally posted by winetarelli:

quote:

Originally posted by flwino:
Was...in...Mexico. Had a bottle presented to me, and it was correct...

It has been my experience that if you are in Mexico and no part of the bottle says "Cerveza" on it, then it is not, in fact, correct.

you wouldn't necessarily find a worm in those types of bottles =)

quote:

Originally posted by g-man:

quote:

Originally posted by winetarelli:

quote:

Originally posted by flwino:
Was...in...Mexico. Had a bottle presented to me, and it was correct...

It has been my experience that if you are in Mexico and no part of the bottle says "Cerveza" on it, then it is not, in fact, correct.

you wouldn't necessarily find a worm in those types of bottles =)

EXACTLY

Ok, so Tequila is the outlier.

Note this was a five star hotle with an American Somm and American manager.

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Matthews:
Should the sommelier taste the wine before serving it? This was a question in the survey, and I was surprised how few people said "yes". I prefer this. If I order something off the list, I want the sommelier to make sure it's in good condition; why should I have to decide if the wine is corked? If I bring something, I think the sommelier deserves a taste. But that's because I basically consider (hope) the sommelier is an ally. Many people seem to think it's no better than stealing. Go figure.

I'd like to believe that everyone serving me in a restaurant is an ally. A sommelier tasting an expensive wine without asking or being offered it, however, is in my opinion like the waiter tasting my steak to see if the chef prepared it correctly.

Like others, there are many gripes about wine service in general. Knowing (and accepting)that restaurant markups are oftentimes way out of whack w/reality, I'd say my biggest gripe is service (and storage) temp. There is nothing worse than an ice-cold white or a hotter-than-room-temp red, regardless (and especially because) of the price.

Next on the list is stemware - friends I've known in the restaurant biz say they can get better than decent stemware cheap; but because mgmt. doesn't want to hand-wash them they'll buy something w/a 1/4" thick lip that'll take 20,000 cycles in the industrial-strength dishwasher. I'll typically pass these restaurants by, even if I like the food and service.

quote:

Originally posted by JMatthews:
A sommelier tasting an expensive wine without asking or being offered it, however, is in my opinion like the waiter tasting my steak to see if the chef prepared it correctly.

Haha, that put a funny image in my head

quote:

Originally posted by snipes:
Also, I have a question regarding letting the somm. taste the wine before pouring it. How many people have ever had a somm. taste the wine and pronounce the wine as being "off" without question or comment from you? My guess is it doesn't happen very often and this is why I don't see the value in having them taste it before hand.

Happened to me once a long time ago. I was at Casanova in Carmel and the somm helped us pick some older burgundy and he asked if we would like him to taste it first. I said sure and he instantly knew it was off. He let me smell and it was bad. He then helped find a different bottle that was great.

quote:

Originally posted by GlennK:

quote:

Originally posted by snipes:
Also, I have a question regarding letting the somm. taste the wine before pouring it. How many people have ever had a somm. taste the wine and pronounce the wine as being "off" without question or comment from you? My guess is it doesn't happen very often and this is why I don't see the value in having them taste it before hand.

Happened to me once a long time ago. I was at Casanova in Carmel and the somm helped us pick some older burgundy and he asked if we would like him to taste it first. I said sure and he instantly knew it was off. He let me smell and it was bad. He then helped find a different bottle that was great.

Also happened to me recently with the sommelier at Palais Coburg in Vienna.

quote:

Originally posted by kybo:
Like others, there are many gripes about wine service in general. Knowing (and accepting)that restaurant markups are oftentimes way out of whack w/reality...

I think this hits it on the head. If I'm going to spend 2-3 times the retail price of a bottle of wine (which you almost have to do if you want a bottle of wine at a restaurant in AZ since there are virtually no BYO restauarants) the least they can do is give me (a) the bottle I ordered, (b) a bottle that isn't "off" (or a hassle-free replacement if it is) and (c) service worthy of the markup.

I've never bought a bottle at a restaurant, paid the huge markup, received a great bottle and great service and been upset about the markup afterwards.

A lot of you guys have been abused and traumatized. Not the case here, I have been happy with the wine service in most places. 200%-300% mark ups are out of my league so in that case I go by the glass or just skip wine altogether.

I would like to see more wine retailer/restaurant combos open up like the ones mentioned below.

San Diego Wine Sellar and Brasserie is an elegant and upscale place with very polite, considerate, unobtrusive and friendly wine service. You can pick up a bottle in their wine shop. Their prices are a little high but not that bad. Especially compared to typical mark ups.

I also love the casual 3rd Corner and the even more casual Wine Steals. Both places give pretty good advice about how the wine is drinking if you ask and give a little info about your preference. At many restaurants all I hear is "my favorite is the Cakebread". Not everyone who waits tables really likes wine.

I have one bad memory here in SD.

Cafe Eleven had the worst wine service. Even though the restaurant had a corkage policy the waiter seemed to resent we brought our own wine. He should not show emotions on this matter. The waiter knocked over a glass and it landed in my lap. Then he blamed it on the person across the table and to my right because they had not finished the wine in their glass, then he it assured me it was no big deal because I was wearing jeans. How rude. I never said anything, but someone like that, how long could they possibly last without getting fired?

Now that I've dissed somms in general, I feel I should point out a good experience.

There's a particular purple, wine-centric restaurant east of Seattle where the somm will go out of his way to point out the bargains on the list. More like a friendly forumite than a snooty somm, if he's really enthused about a wine he'll buy one or two himself and pass them around for free tastes. This guy's infectious enthusiasm generates more wine sales for his restaurant than any Super-Duper List or Magazine Award ever could.

quote:

Originally posted by spo:
Wine Sellar and Brasserie is an elegant and upscale place with very polite, considerate, unobtrusive and friendly wine service. You can pick up a bottle in their wine shop.

Love the place, but it's quite a cab ride from downtown.

(I have turned off my normal signature which discloses the name/address of my wine bar/restaurant to avoid having this post be seem as commercial in nature)

I spent almost 20 years as a customer of restaurants with poor wine service and selections. I got fed up with that and opened my own wine bar/restaurant almost 3 years ago.

Since we opened in late 2005, I have always made sure that we cure the common faults listed above, which follows my basic premise - to create a place I would like to go to.

These are our standard policies:

1. White wine is served at 52F.
2. Red wine is served at 62F.
3. All wines are served in appropriate sized Riedel stemware (7 different sized bowls).
4. Wines by the bottle are priced at Retail plus $20. My home state of Delaware does not allow corkage. IMO, $20 over retail is equal to a corkage fee.
5. All wines, if unacceptable to the guest, for any reason, are returnable, with no questions asked.
6.If we recommend a wine and it is not to your liking, we will replace it with another one of your or our choice, no questions asked.
7. Our wine list (over 400 selections) is reprinted at least weekly, and all out of stock bottles are listed on our point of sale system "item out" list. Our servers are required to know what is out of stock at all times, including food and wine. Since we reprint our wine list frequently, the item out list is never more than 2-3 bottles.

The issues raised by the previous posters to this thread are yet another reason why I elect to not submit my wine list for consideration in the Wine Spectator Dining Awards program.

My standards of excellence are much higher than what is required to win an award with WS. Many of the restaurants that are noted above with serious complaints about their wine service are WS Award winners.

I know of many other restaurateurs who feel the same way and do not participate for the above reasons.

Please, please, WS Powers That Be. Change the policies and procedures for the WS Dining Awards Program so the most informed readers, including those actively participate in this forum, also recognize your Award Winners as excellent in their wine programs.

Thanks.