There is no question that collecting the best wines of Burgundy and Bordeaux is the correct answer, for today anyway. However, I think that window for making sure profits over time in Fine Wines has now been closed! First Growth Bordeaux wines are selling from $300-$1000 per bottle, and I don't know if those wines will appreciate proportionately overtime in the future. For this generation, that window was from 1982-1999.
I don't have a clue where the next investing gold mine will be, but it's not Fine Wines, unless you can find those very few special wines that become the talk of the world! A very difficult task!
A better bet would be investing in the next WalMart, FedEx, or Microsoft; also not an easy discovery. Invest consistently, and don't try to time the marketplace! At least you won't have the same difficult storage issue with Securities that you would have with Fine Wines!
There are a few good books in investing in wine. I cant remember the name right now, something along the line of investing in liquid assets. I would recommend picking them up, it's a great place to start. The books go over what to invest in and why, it shows some historical data that may effect which wines you choose.
Also liv-ex maybe something to look into, it's a paid site based out of London I believe. Liv-ex tracks how wines are selling much like the tsx or dow does with companies.
The choice to invest in wine is your call, there are people who make lts and people who loose lots. I would suggest doing lots of research before actually spending money. The last time you prob. want is to spend more then you normally would on a bottle of juice only to find out it's not going to pay the returns you had hopped.
On a side note, everyone keeps talking about the risk. Show me an investment that does not have risk. You invest in homes and the carrying costs could easily be more then the profit made, we have all seen what the stock market can do. Commodities fluctuate like everything else. Each investment has a risk and a potential reward. You need to evaluate the risk you're willing to take and the reward you are looking for.
Just so you know - the "investment" idea is more of a hobby/challenge. I play the market - buy my google and bought Apple a few months back. This is more of a "I'm young - let's see if I can play around with seeing what may work. Maybe I make a few bucks but, at the very least, I have good wine to drink down the road."
Originally posted by MiamiWineNovice: Thank you all for your insight.
Just so you know - the "investment" idea is more of a hobby/challenge. I play the market - buy my google and bought Apple a few months back. This is more of a "I'm young - let's see if I can play around with seeing what may work. Maybe I make a few bucks but, at the very least, I have good wine to drink down the road."
You want to play with a few bucks? Get an options account and start with that. It's all about leverage
Posts: 3579 | Location: NYC | Registered: Feb 16, 2007
On a side note, everyone keeps talking about the risk. Show me an investment that does not have risk. You invest in homes and the carrying costs could easily be more then the profit made, we have all seen what the stock market can do. Commodities fluctuate like everything else. Each investment has a risk and a potential reward. You need to evaluate the risk you're willing to take and the reward you are looking for.
Stocks are more of an efficient market then wine by far.
For the risk you take in wine, the ROI would be a very poor value compared to some of the other assets you're talking about.
Wine technically isn't a commodity, because different wines are varied in prices across a market. As such, you're acutally betting on the inflation of luxury goods, which in the past 10 years has been growing at 12% compounded (UBS article somewhere)
Posts: 3579 | Location: NYC | Registered: Feb 16, 2007
I think most people, that own more than two or three cases of wine, have had this thought at one time or another. However, what you have to realize is, the value of wine is like the value of residential real estate: it's only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it. By this I mean, it's not like you can do a discounted cash flow, or pour over its financials and do research to calculate some growth projection, it's just worth what the next guy is willing to pay.
There's no there, there.
Drink it, have fun, and maybe keep your eye open for some quick arbitage chances.
Posts: 255 | Location: Tucson | Registered: Aug 05, 2007
On a side note, everyone keeps talking about the risk. Show me an investment that does not have risk. You invest in homes and the carrying costs could easily be more then the profit made, we have all seen what the stock market can do. Commodities fluctuate like everything else. Each investment has a risk and a potential reward. You need to evaluate the risk you're willing to take and the reward you are looking for.
Stocks are more of an efficient market then wine by far.
For the risk you take in wine, the ROI would be a very poor value compared to some of the other assets you're talking about.
Wine technically isn't a commodity, because different wines are varied in prices across a market. As such, you're actually betting on the inflation of luxury goods, which in the past 10 years has been growing at 12% compounded (UBS article somewhere)
Yeah but I cant drink my stocks But seriously, I get what you're saying. I would never invest everything I have in just wine, its part of a diversified portfolio. The stock market can be more efficient assuming we don have another huge recession...
I guess it comes down to what each person wants and how they want to get there.
*The classy one can be Ms. Lafite *The one too big to be dancing can be Ms. Latour *The one with stripping skills that arn't up to the standards of the club can be Ms. Mouton *The one that flies in from L.A. every weekend can be Ms. Brion *The one that always gives you your money worth and never disappoints can be Ms. Margaux
LMAO!!!!!!!!
Dude, that was both witty and accurate...
Here is to great wines, expensive watches and... "low" APR credit cards...
Posts: 141 | Location: San Anton, TX | Registered: Jan 24, 2008
The number one and number two wines usually move up in price really fast. They may or may not stay there, but if you pick up a few, you can probably flip them.
Posts: 799 | Location: NY | Registered: Dec 09, 2007
Originally posted by latour67: For this generation, that window was from 1982-1999.
Latour, you HAVE to throw the 2000 vintage in there as well. All First Growth from 2000 has at least doubled in value. In the case of Lafite, it's over 5x of the first tranches price. Most of lesser growth wine and even second wines are also fetching a healthy return.
Anyone that bought heavy on the 2000s made out like a bandit if they sold the wine in the summer of 2008. Even today, the return is not that much off the peak, if any.
For example, say you got the 2000 Lafite from Costco or first tranches, your cost is around $250 - $290. Back in May 2008, it hammered at $1,510. Dropped all the way down to $800 this past February and has now reached a new height of $1,600 just a month ago.
If you are investing, then starting when prices/demand is down would be a great time to get started.
Regarding no investments are risk free, well I beg to differ, just invest in a bank that is too big to fail or buy bonds in these banks. Timmy G will ensure you never have to take a loss.
Posts: 108 | Location: Minneapolis | Registered: Aug 01, 2002
I think a minimal number of cases were sold in the first and second tranche from the 2000 First Growth Bordeaux vintage, and just enough to establish higher prices. By the time I had an opportunity to buy, those prices were at $800/$1000 per bottle.
If I sell a bottle for $1600, what amount will I (as the seller) net?
I think a minimal number of cases were sold in the first and second tranche from the 2000 First Growth Bordeaux vintage, and just enough to establish higher prices. By the time I had an opportunity to buy, those prices were at $800/$1000 per bottle.
If I sell a bottle for $1600, what amount will I (as the seller) net?
I wasn't looking at futures back then, so don't know about the actual availability. However, there was a good amount available once it arrived on-shore at Costco for between $250 - $280.
If you just sell one bottle and hammers $1,600, the net is at $1,296. If you sell 7 bottles or more, the net per bottle is at $1,344.
Originally posted by calgarydetail: There are a few good books in investing in wine. I cant remember the name right now, something along the line of investing in liquid assets.
Published, conveniently-enough, by a guy who makes a living out of retailing wine... probably not the best source for an unbiased look at the subject.
Originally posted by cuffthis: a full page of posts and no "business" vs "hobby"/collecting sales tax, blah, blah, blah chiming in from the resident experts?
Are that much of an ass, that you cannot decipher the difference between someone trying to pawn off wines versus someone who wants to obtain advice from people who do know wine???
On a serious note, buy what you like, regardless of the appreciation of this fixed asset. At least you can always gift it away to your heirs and let them appreciate the wines that you have collected.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: mareff,
Originally posted by cuffthis: a full page of posts and no "business" vs "hobby"/collecting sales tax, blah, blah, blah chiming in from the resident experts?
When I see MiamiWineNovice openly advertising a sale of over $1,000,000 of wine on the Buying and Selling forum I'll remember to ask if he's planning on paying taxes.
Originally posted by cuffthis: a full page of posts and no "business" vs "hobby"/collecting sales tax, blah, blah, blah chiming in from the resident experts?
Are that much of an ass, that you cannot decipher the difference between someone trying to pawn off wines versus someone who wants to obtain advice from people who do know wine???
Profit motive is the definition of a business (vs a hobby).
Enjoy your day.
Posts: 323 | Location: Wilmington, DE | Registered: May 08, 2003
Originally posted by calgarydetail: There are a few good books in investing in wine. I cant remember the name right now, something along the line of investing in liquid assets.
Published, conveniently-enough, by a guy who makes a living out of retailing wine... probably not the best source for an unbiased look at the subject.
fair but its still and interesting place to start. Its a quick and east read so your not loosing much from reading it. Just my opion ofcourse
Given your age and keeness I would suggest you study the progress of wineries in proven areas with emerging talent and energy that make them noticed now with an eye kept on them in the forseeable future. They could be old established areas having wineries with fresh new faces (ie. Bordeaux and Burgundy) or the proven houses expanding their knowledge base into frontiers such as Chile, China, Croatia and Slovenia, etc. Also consider who would want to buy your wines in the future; where will they be located and what parameters are potentially there to instill demand and desire to buy. Keep an eye on the Far East; China, Hong Kong and their auction markets have only begun their ascent upwards...
Posts: 6 | Location: BC | Registered: Apr 15, 2009
