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Interesting piece. I'm a little ambivalent on the issue. If the additives are safe and they really do help turn mediocre wines into "amazingly vibrant, succulent and aromatic wines" - isn't that a good thing? I think the key issue has to be disclosure. If wineries want to use these things they need to be up front and tell people. Let the public decide whether or not they want wine that's got MegaPurple, AR2000 or OptimusPrime in it.
http://scmwine.info
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| Posts: 6602 | Location: Santa Clara Valley AVA | Registered: Jul 02, 2004 | |
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Wow. I'm less concerned about the additives than I am the heavy metals and arsenic described. Thanks, now I have something new to worry about... 
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"I was thinking how nothing lasts. And what a shame that is." --Benjamin Button
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| Posts: 3717 | Location: Everett, WA | Registered: Mar 08, 2002 | |
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"As for adding things to wine, Warren said: 'Wineries don't want to list additives in their wines, but we may be coming to that with increasing consumer demands for honesty in labeling.'" Sadly this is true and I really don't understand why. I've debated this with others in the business and I think it would be a huge positive for the wine business if we had the same label requirements as other beverages. Personally I think this is a very attractive label to a consumer: http://caloriecount.about.com/calories-wine-i14084Add in a list of ingredients: Fresh Grapes, Yeast Hulls, Potassium Metabisulfate (as a preservative). Hard to beat that for a 'healthy' label.
Paul Romero (tlily)- Owner, Winemaker, Tour Guide
Stefania Wine
http://www.stefaniawine.com
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| Posts: 5726 | Location: San Jose | Registered: May 24, 2002 | |
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cool. can we get it with extra fiber, calcium and/or omega 3's as well?
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"religion ='s thought disorder" - sigmund freud
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| Posts: 6358 | Location: Park Slope, Brooklyn | Registered: Nov 20, 2002 | |
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A few points. Firstly and most importantly, wine is an interventionist and manipulative process. Without intervention and manipulation, you have vinegar. No ifs and no buts. When the author mentions "folks have been adding strange things to their wine for more than 2,000 years" it is important to remember that wine 2000 years ago is nothing like wine today. In many cases, in the last 2000 years, wine was consumed in Europe because plain water was not safe to drink. (The alcohol percentage was far lower.) The author goes onto state, "There's a new arsenal of chemicals out there" making it sound like winemakers are using a witches brew of bad things. That is utter rubbish! Take the tartaric acid he mentions in relation to Australia where he says, "I found myself tripping over huge sacks of tartaric acid in reputable wineries." TA occurs naturally in all wine! So its addition is about as exciting and newsworthy as the funeral of the town drunk. He then states, "And in tasting global wines over the past decade, I noticed a surge in an aroma and flavour that hints of chocolate in big reds from France, California, Australia and many other top wine producers. This can occur naturally, but all of a sudden what was once an exquisite rarity in pricey reds has become quite common in lower priced wines, too." So bloody what. Its caused by better viticulture and better winemaking. Not the addition of Lindt or even worse, Cadburys. He states, "In California, at a panel discussion on how to cope with soaring natural alcohol levels in red zinfandels, one noted winemaker boldly admitted he adds water when the alcohol hits 16 per cent or higher." I can't speak for the US but that's illegal in Oz. Another gem... "The issue of tannins has suddenly grown more controversial, said Ontario Viticulture Association president Jim Warren. "If added, they can enhance body and mouth feel and take away the greenness of a wine. The issue is, no one knows they are being used." What a load horse dung! So bloody what! Tannin occurs in grapes naturally. So what is the issue if it is added to make wine better? "This is part of a brave (or cowardly) new world of performance enhancers that can mask defects, deepen colour and add flavours. They can also be used to keep a wine tasting consistent in years when nature is fickle or variable." Oh my, oh my! What a shame! Doesn't the guy realise that many large companies want their big selling wine to be consistent from year to year. Why you may ask. The answer is simple. That's what consumers want. "Larry Paterson (a.k.a. "the Little Fat Wino"), a talented amateur winemaker and experimenter with growing grape varieties created for northern climates, said: "Companies for years have made aromas, chocolate extracts and flavours for wines, with big international sales to wineries." Quoting an amateur winemaker to make a point has about as much credibility as a politicians promise before an election! I could keep going, but frankly this rubbish is not worth any more effort on my part.
Cheers
Ric
www.torbwine.com
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| Posts: 1153 | Location: Bowral NSW Australia | Registered: Dec 01, 2001 | |
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Ric, TA is naturally occuring but to artificially add more is another story. Just like human growth hormone is naturally occuring but illegal if artificially added as a performance enahncer (in people!). Now of course they're not the same thing and I don't think there's going to be any call for banning of these "performance enhancers" in wine. Rather, I think the discussion should be centered around proper disclosure. And your hate against Cadbury chocolates (UK version)... well, that's just going to far!  |
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quote: I can't speak for the US but that's illegal in Oz.
Torb - that's legal here and done pretty widely. Take the entire article with a grain of salt my Aussie friend. The Canadian press has a different level of standards than most English language countries. Facts need not be checked or varified, nor multiple sources cited, before an article will run. It's perfectly ok to run rumor as a story (you should try following the hockey news). It's more tabloid journalism, that what we're used to in mainstream press here in the U.S., or I imagine in Australia.
Paul Romero (tlily)- Owner, Winemaker, Tour Guide
Stefania Wine
http://www.stefaniawine.com
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| Posts: 5726 | Location: San Jose | Registered: May 24, 2002 | |
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quote: Originally posted by Stefania Wine: quote: I can't speak for the US but that's illegal in Oz.
Torb - that's legal here and done pretty widely.
My understanding is that it's only legal to add water in order to prevent a stuck fermentation; however that word 'prevent' leaves a loophole, that it's not unusual to add the water early "to prevent it from happening", rather than waiting until it actually does stick.
http://scmwine.info
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| Posts: 6602 | Location: Santa Clara Valley AVA | Registered: Jul 02, 2004 | |
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| Posts: 1788 | Location: San Diego, CA | Registered: Nov 19, 2005 | |
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i BELIEVE IN DISCLOSURE. If you want to add Mega-Purple or whatever, jsut list it on the label.
The part of the article I thought was bad was the MSG part. About 15% of the population, including me, has some sort of negative reaction to MSG. I want it listed on the label so I can make a purchasing choice. The writer seems to blow msg allergies off. What if people can trace reactions to certain wine additives? Should they have to give up wine in total because winemakers don't want to list their newest additive?
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quote: Originally posted by TORB:
A few points.
Firstly and most importantly, wine is an interventionist and manipulative process. Without intervention and manipulation, you have vinegar. No ifs and no buts.
When the author mentions "folks have been adding strange things to their wine for more than 2,000 years" it is important to remember that wine 2000 years ago is nothing like wine today. In many cases, in the last 2000 years, wine was consumed in Europe because plain water was not safe to drink. (The alcohol percentage was far lower.)
The author goes onto state, "There's a new arsenal of chemicals out there" making it sound like winemakers are using a witches brew of bad things. That is utter rubbish! Take the tartaric acid he mentions in relation to Australia where he says, "I found myself tripping over huge sacks of tartaric acid in reputable wineries." TA occurs naturally in all wine! So its addition is about as exciting and newsworthy as the funeral of the town drunk.
He then states, "And in tasting global wines over the past decade, I noticed a surge in an aroma and flavour that hints of chocolate in big reds from France, California, Australia and many other top wine producers. This can occur naturally, but all of a sudden what was once an exquisite rarity in pricey reds has become quite common in lower priced wines, too."
So bloody what. Its caused by better viticulture and better winemaking. Not the addition of Lindt or even worse, Cadburys.
He states, "In California, at a panel discussion on how to cope with soaring natural alcohol levels in red zinfandels, one noted winemaker boldly admitted he adds water when the alcohol hits 16 per cent or higher." I can't speak for the US but that's illegal in Oz.
Another gem... "The issue of tannins has suddenly grown more controversial, said Ontario Viticulture Association president Jim Warren. "If added, they can enhance body and mouth feel and take away the greenness of a wine. The issue is, no one knows they are being used."
What a load horse dung! So bloody what! Tannin occurs in grapes naturally. So what is the issue if it is added to make wine better?
"This is part of a brave (or cowardly) new world of performance enhancers that can mask defects, deepen colour and add flavours. They can also be used to keep a wine tasting consistent in years when nature is fickle or variable."
Oh my, oh my! What a shame! Doesn't the guy realise that many large companies want their big selling wine to be consistent from year to year. Why you may ask. The answer is simple. That's what consumers want.
"Larry Paterson (a.k.a. "the Little Fat Wino"), a talented amateur winemaker and experimenter with growing grape varieties created for northern climates, said: "Companies for years have made aromas, chocolate extracts and flavours for wines, with big international sales to wineries."
Quoting an amateur winemaker to make a point has about as much credibility as a politicians promise before an election!
I could keep going, but frankly this rubbish is not worth any more effort on my part.
That all fine TORB but then, don't call it WINE!! 
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"I have drunk not to the clouding of my reason, but just so much that I can still surely distinguish the syllables with my tongue." Athenaeus
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| Posts: 3390 | Location: montreal | Registered: Feb 21, 2004 | |
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quote: Originally posted by SD-Wineaux: Since cdr isn't around, we'll just have to recycle.
Ah yes, the good ol' days. Thanks for that blast from the past, SD-Wineaux!
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"I have drunk not to the clouding of my reason, but just so much that I can still surely distinguish the syllables with my tongue." Athenaeus
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| Posts: 3390 | Location: montreal | Registered: Feb 21, 2004 | |
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quote: Originally posted by Mimik: That all fine TORB but then, don't call it WINE!!
OK; how about PLONK!  Or if that is not acceptable how about cats pee...... no we can't do that; that moniker is already reserved by the KIWI's.
Cheers
Ric
www.torbwine.com
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| Posts: 1153 | Location: Bowral NSW Australia | Registered: Dec 01, 2001 | |
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Torb;
We're not talking about water here. Why are you against disclosure of additives. If you add mega-Purple or superTannin,etc. Why not be proud and disclose it on the bottle?
What's your beef with that?
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Le Chambertin;
Don't disagree with you one bit in any thing you said.
Other than water and yeast, Put it on the bottle. Be proud, say mega-Purple added.
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You need to keep this in mind when reading the article: quote: My first clue something was changing came after a lousy growing year in Ontario.
Get real everybody - Ontario, justly famous for its outstanding full-bodied red wines? The birthplace of great wine? After that, remember that laws are made to protect the status quo. In Germany, where you never have to worry about acidity, they grandly announce that it is illegal to acidify. In California, where you rarely have a year with insufficient sugar, they frown on chaptelization. And in Australia, where they've had a few years of drought and they realize that people smell much nicer when they bathe regularly, they made the sensible decision to use precious water for cleaning, not adding to wine. And these laws are serious and enforced and account for the great wines that are made in the respective countries. The proof is that when Germany gets a really hot year like 2003, they pass an emergency measure to allow acidifying. Point is, everyone does something to make the grape turn into wine. As TORB points out, they don't jump off the vine and into the bottles. In Burgundy, where people go ga-ga because of the special and unique terroirs, they invented chaptelization. So the great Burgundian terroir always seems to hint Cuba, land of the sugar cane. In places like Ontario, the Loire, Burgundy, and part of the US, they probably do need pesticides and fungicides. In desert areas like part of Spain, Argentina, Australia, etc., they don't have fungus problems and in many cases, no pest problems either. So you trumpet whatever advantage you might have and frown on others for what they do. As for labeling, that will depend on the political power of the parties that take an interest. My favorite label is on the bottle in my supermarket - "Natural Wine Flavors". |
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| Posts: 801 | Location: NY | Registered: Dec 09, 2007 | |
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quote: Originally posted by Flaco:
Torb, you and Stefania wine are a huge assest to this forum and greatly respected...although I have not had any of your wines.
Personally I love when I can find chocolate, coffee, mocha and other flavours in a wine...I just hope that they are a natural process. Otherwise it feels like I am drinking a product less than what it should be.
Thanks to both of you for the information.
Cheers
My take is this, if you need additives to enhance the product then put it in a can and sell it next to Coca-Cola for a buck twenty-five. If I pay for a premium bottle, I want to be paying for the grapes, vineyard and winemakers abilities, not the newest thing people want to taste that's been added.
Live for today, there may be no tomorrow...
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| Posts: 99 | Location: New York | Registered: Nov 16, 2007 | |
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There's two issues here: 1) Trying to make plonk taste better 2) The belief that 'fine wine' should be a reflection of site and craft--and that fine wine should be more about letting the vineyard shine through than adding a bunch of crap to an inferior wine to make it worth more money. Most wine additives are safe. A little megapurple or a touch of copper sulfate to clear up some sulfide issues is not a big deal. We all hope that great sites will shine through in great wines and that winemakers will be judicious in their use. Take home message is that these are all tools provided for the craft of making wine..but the greatest wines require no manipulation--the fruit is great, the ferment is great, they're great in barrel and great in bottle.
www.clospepe.com
"Wine is light, held together by water." --Galileo
"In the abundance of water, the fool is thirsty." -R.N. Marley
Wes Hagen, VM/WM Clos Pepe
Director: PR/Marketing Santa Rita Hills Winegrower's Alliance
weshagen@thegrid.net
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| Posts: 48 | Location: Santa Rita Hills, CA, USA | Registered: Jul 25, 2004 | |
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quote: Originally posted by E. Guido:
My take is this, if you need additives to enhance the product then put it in a can and sell it next to Coca-Cola for a buck twenty-five.
If I pay for a premium bottle, I want to be paying for the grapes, vineyard and winemakers abilities, not the newest thing people want to taste that's been added.
Guido, Even the most expensive, world class wines, normally/frequently have some 'additives' other than the grapes. For instances, in the case of tannins, which are sometime added, there is tannin in the grape and as well as the oak. Therefore, if a wine is stored in new oak, in theory there is added tannin. The point is where do you draw the line? And what about reverse osmosis being used in winemaking? It wasn't a new world invention, it was first used by the French, and it may shock many people if they knew how many wineries in France use this process. Also, as I have already stated, many 'so called' additives occur naturally in wine, so why should something that occurs naturally in the product be disclosed on the label? If it doesn't occur naturally, then by all means disclose it on the label. If you buy loose dried fruit from the health food shop of fruit market, does it have a disclosure that the product contains sulpha? No matter how much you may like it to be otherwise, winemaking is an interventionist process - always has been and always will be. Its like being pregnant. You either are or you aren't.... the question if you are, is by how much.
Cheers
Ric
www.torbwine.com
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| Posts: 1153 | Location: Bowral NSW Australia | Registered: Dec 01, 2001 | |
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quote: Originally posted by GregT:
Get real everybody - Ontario, justly famous for its outstanding full-bodied red wines? The birthplace of great wine?
Just one more sip.
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Personally, I don't care if the put unicorn shit in wine if it makes it better. As long as it isn't a health hazard who gives a fukc. Try some truly organic wine sometime. Better drink it the first week it's bottled without sulfite treatment.
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"One may dislike carrots, spinach, beetroot, or the skin on hot milk. But not wine. It is like hating the air that one breathes, since each is equally indispensable."
Marcel Ayme`
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| Posts: 6957 | Location: The Left Coast | Registered: Dec 01, 2001 | |
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This is gonna get good. Hope the mods have a well-deserved day off tomorrow,