quote:

Originally posted by mareff:

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleD:

quote:

Originally posted by Jfont:
with all these complaints on futures, did anyone file a complaint with consumer affairs regarding this?

I don't think the futures contract specified when the person would get the wines. Therefore, there was no legal basis to file a complaint.

well stated. I blame no one except the people themselves who happen to purchase from PC. You knew the risks, deal with the wait!

I think a lot of people are fine dealing with the wait, and expected the wait, though still wish the wait was a little shorter, and also were concerned that the global economic problems and their effects on the wine market might render their wait permanent.

Also I think 'futures' is not really a fair characterization of all of these orders. I ordered my 05 Pape Clement as 'pre-arrival' in early 2008. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the 2005 Bordeaux en primeur campaign was not still underway in early 2008. If I am wrong, yes I ordered 2005 futures and still do not have them.

I just received notification from Binny's that my Malescot was in.

Still waiting on PC for Pontet and Leoville Barton. I wouldn't be drinking them now anyway, so it doesn't bother me as I knew what I signed up for.

I still don't get it. The wines were ordered by negociants and importers primarily in Spring 2006. Some may have continued to order through 2006 and may be in early 2007, but prices had gone up significantly. Orders would have been fulfilled in late 2007, and shipped in early 2008. So where are your wines that you paid for?

Insert: [beating a dead horse emoticon]

quote:

Originally posted by James Suckling:
I still don't get it. The wines were ordered by negociants and importers primarily in Spring 2006. Some may have continued to order through 2006 and may be in early 2007, but prices had gone up significantly. Orders would have been fulfilled in late 2007, and shipped in early 2008. So where are your wines that you paid for?

I was thinking you'd have more contacts than us to answer that question when I suggested a forray into investigative journalism many pages ago. I certainly can't answer.

I'm still waiting on one last wine from 2005 (and one from 2006). As I'm not planning on drinking any of them soon, I'm actually more worried about getting my 2004 Brunellos as I've never ordered so many from (Premier Cru) before. Not that I'm planning on drinking those, either, though.

And my only responsible reaction to the unusual slow delivery of 2005 Bordeaux is a plan to order less wine until I catch up on deliveries (to avoid a crushing loss under a falling pyramid scheme-style scam). But after years of great quality deliveries with no exceptions... it's hard not to remain optimistic and loyal.

*kick* *kick* *kicking that horse*

It sounds like people are confusing futures, pre-arrivals, and whatever the term is for 'give me your money now and I'll find the wine at your price point by some non-defined future.'

How's that for beating a dead horse?!

quote:

Originally posted by Lentini:

quote:

Originally posted by James Suckling:
I still don't get it. . .So where are your wines that you paid for?

I was thinking you'd have more contacts than us to answer that question when I suggested a forray into investigative journalism many pages ago. I certainly can't answer.

Exactly.

Indy and Lentini, you both know that Suckling cannot comment on a retailer per se. WS is not in the business of investigations of this sort.

My advice is for all those who have purchased from PC, gather together for a civil suit, and then the WS will report it...HA

You're right mareff... Back when I suggested it, there were several retailers that hadn't delivered, so it isn't a retailer-specific investigation. PC just happens to be the one I bought from.

Yeah, WS reports... WS doesn't investigate. So it's out of scope.

I'm thinking it could make an interesting wine book, though.

quote:

Originally posted by Lentini:

Yeah, WS reports... WS doesn't investigate. So it's out of scope.

I'm thinking it could make an interesting wine book, though.

I didn't realize that this has become a PC-only crusade for futures, but why would that matter? WS bloggers have no problem blowing up (naming) small local restaurants that give them crappy service/food/wine. Fundamentally, what's the difference between this and going after Premier Cru?

PC-only or not, I wish WS would investigate more some, but it always comes down to resources. These things take time and hours to do well. And, in this economy. Still. . .

and the flipside is that I doubt that PC even cares. Very sad

quote:

Originally posted by James Suckling:
I still don't get it. The wines were ordered by negociants and importers primarily in Spring 2006. Some may have continued to order through 2006 and may be in early 2007, but prices had gone up significantly. Orders would have been fulfilled in late 2007, and shipped in early 2008. So where are your wines that you paid for?

I dunno james, maybe you should investigate some wine retailers, or better yet create an award that will recognize excellence in wine retailing, similar to the restaurant awards.

Just picked up a 375ml bottle of 2005 Clarendelle for $3. Couldn't find any TN's on the board. Has anyone had it?

VM

quote:

Originally posted by Vino-Ripper:
Still need from PC.

2005 Malescot St. Exupery Magnum, 1.5 L x 3 ordered 6-09-06
2005 Leoville Poyferre 3 Liter, 3 L ordered 7-19-07
2005 Cos d'Estournel 6 Liter ordered 4-09-08

I would think the malescot was futures and the rest was pre-order. Regardless, they should be in my cellar, not floating around somewhere.

Magically, PC now says my Malescot mags are in and they have ships comming in any day that should bring more vino.

James,
I am in the same boat as some of the above people. I am still waiting for about 16 cases of 2005 Bordeaux Futures bought from US retailers. I expect to finally get about 8 cases this week. As for the rest, your guess is as good as mine. Your question regarding where those wines are is a good one.

quote:

Originally posted by James Suckling:
I still don't get it. The wines were ordered by negociants and importers primarily in Spring 2006. Some may have continued to order through 2006 and may be in early 2007, but prices had gone up significantly. Orders would have been fulfilled in late 2007, and shipped in early 2008. So where are your wines that you paid for?

Sounds like an opportunity to call the owner of PC and interview him about his business model...

I'm telling you guys...If enough people call consumer affairs on this, you will get their attention. And consumer affairs may even put some pressure on PC. Waiting this long for your wine is rediculous.

I look upon a great vintage such as 2005 to be an excellent opportunity for replenishing my cellars with superb wines of mediocre pedigree at equally unimpressive prices. So far I have had fantastic luck with AC Bordeaux Superieurs, Medocs, St. Emilion etc. I am particularly thrilled by my luck with these ACs - Cotes de Castillon, Cote de Bourg, two ACs that I had never given much thought to in the past, to my disadvantage obviously. To me, it is genuinely rewarding to see that practically no Chateau could mess up the 05 vintage. Balance is incredible even at the $10/15 levels. I fully expect even the lesser bottles to drink well for 5 to 10 years.

What is even more rewarding from a consumer's point of view at least, is the fact that 05 prices of these lesser Chateaux did not change at all. The 2006 and 2004 releases are priced the same as the 2005! To me that's ludicrous but am I complaining? NO! But look at the prices for the 05 GCC. Forgive me for being blunt but those prices are ludicrous also. I have tasted a few of those and although they are indeed excellent to be sure, I cannot find the need to possess a lot of them.

Anyway, here is a short list of 2005 wines that I have been most impressed with:

Ch. Hyot, Cotes de Castillon
Ch. Haut Millet, Cote de Bourg
Ch. Ludeman la Cote, Graves
Ch. Lavagnac, AC Bordeaux
Ch. Lilian Ladouys, St. Estephe

The list goes on and I'd be sharing my finds with you on this forum.

Good luck with your 2005s also.

YATS Wine Cellars

caveat emptor....I have personal ties to Premier Cru. And, what I'm writing below is not from them, and I'm not speaking for them. It's merely my own "opinion". Take it for what it's worth.

quote:

How could anyone not have their 2005 futures yet? The secondary market for these wines is already well established. This makes no sense

That said.....You guys are talking about apples and oranges.

Premier Cru does "PRE ARRIVAL". Not "FUTURES". Pre-arrival is (at least for them) quite often grey market. And, all it means is that you are going to pay them the $$$ before the wine "arrives". Ie: in advance....nothing more, nothing less. Some of their stuff may be be legitimate futures, but most is not.

Those who bought in a bonified futures campaign probably all have their wine, and in this case, James is correct in the shock he's displaying.

If you bought from Premier Cru, you bought "pre-arrival", and James in NOT correct to have the same sense of shock. Unfortunately, this is not well stated on their website, nor do many have any idea this is NOT the same thing as "futures". I think they could do a much better job at explaining what "pre-arrival" is, and what kind of commitment they will place on having your wine delivered by a specified time (even if that means simply stating that they can offer no commitment of timely arrival). I have had orders that went beyond what I was comfortable with, and they've always been willing to unwind the deal in a way that compensates me fairly. That said...I have not bought pre-arrival from them in over a year now, and do not plan to (especially in this economic environment), unless I can be safely assured of the wines arrival time. I'm not buying futures or pre-arrival in general right now as the wine market has been in free fall, and I don't see the value in having $$ tied up in it.

And...while much of their inventory often has no clear "arrival date", sometimes it does. All you have to do is ask. They get wine from all over the world, and from various collectors/sources at various times. If one of the wines you are buying is being sold to them from a collector, and they know that it's coming by the end of the week, it may say "pre-arrival", but it will be in soon. Other things may be coming from Europe and won't be shipped until the palate is full, which could take months, or years. It all depends....

At the end of the day....it is what it is. Premier Cru is primarily a grey market wine broker. They source their wine from various places, people, etc.. Their prices are usually quite good. They stand behind their promises. But...If you buy from them, beware. And, if you're concerned...phone your order in and ask details about it. They may/should be able to tell you beforehand whether what you're buying is a week away or years away!

Good futures/pre-arrival clarification.

Just as a side note... The gray market bit always sounds scary to me, but PC is an excellent gray market merchant, imho. All bottles I've ever received from them have all been in like-new condition unless otherwise noted. They source well, wherever it is coming from.

quote:

Premier Cru does "PRE ARRIVAL". Not "FUTURES"

Yet they manage to label "2008 Futures" on their main page. (then they label them "pre-arrival" on the individual wines.)

In my opinion, they are actively trying to get you to think of them as futures, with the defensive position of "pre-arrival" built in to cover complaints.

I no longer buy from them.

quote:

Yet they manage to label "2008 Futures" on their main page. (then they label them "pre-arrival" on the individual wines.)

Maybe not necessarily false here? They wear many hats. They are an importer as well. And, (while I'm not 100% sure here), I'm pretty sure they do play the legitimate futures game too. So...early on, 1st tranche, 2nd tranche, if you're able to buy (what usually sells out fast) you're probably buying legit futures. That will arrive on time. If you buy later, you're probably buying grey market, and it could be arriving at ANY time.

I agree, they need to clarify better their position, and let the customer know what "exactly" they are buying. And...if you call the order in and ask about it...they are usually very upfront about where it's coming from and when it "might" be in...so long as they know (and sometimes the sales guys honestly don't know).

They are no longer worth the risk, upfront about it or not. Yes, they will guesstimate your arrivals, and they (mostly) deliver, but I've had more than one "guesstimate" turn into three or four guesstimates when the previous guesstimates had long ago come and gone. I don't find that the prices are worth the time, risk, or anxiety (or the unknown history of the wine).

Quite frankly, I don't believe their claim that pre-arrivals are wine that they have already purchased.

syd...

I've not bought pre-arrival for one year now for many of the same reasons. Their in stock product continues to be just fine and often the lowest around. I've been very happy with my purchases there....

quote:

Originally posted by dr.darkrichandbold:
syd...

I've not bought pre-arrival for one year now for many of the same reasons. Their in stock product continues to be just fine and often the lowest around. I've been very happy with my purchases there....

I'd be OK buying in-stock items. OUtside of the pre-future-arrivals stuff, I have found their customer service to be just dandy.