And yet you took it upon yourself to post a diatribe about JS dissing PC. Why?

quote:

Originally posted by VT2IT:
And yet you took it upon yourself to post a diatribe about JS dissing PC. Why?

Well, my comments were focused on PC because PC was mentioned many times in response to Sucking's posts and I have been a happy customer of PC for many years. I know their model always involves a longer lag-time than others, but the trade-offs are worth it. His fear-mongoring - when people's jobs and businesses are at stake - is based on speculatation without a factual predicate is what I am concerned about.

night all...

quote:

without a factual predicate is what I am concerned about.

For what it's worth, when people do not have their 2005 Bordeaux in hand I consider that factual, and not speculation. Also, we have had several conversations on this site before any JS involvement that highlighted the concern about 2005 Bordeaux futures taking longer than usual. It's not just him, we are all concerned about the late arriving futures. James talking to his contacts in Europe and giving us his informed opinion is called reporting. I would like to know specifics, but we all would. Also, I understand that everyone keeps calling PC a "grey market" company. Please find where they disclose that on the site, I'm just curious. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by NYCWINECONSUMER:

Stand wherever you wish, I care not, but the "incendiary" posts were by Mr. Suckling. Over and over and over again. I am commenting on them. Kill the messenger if you wish.

We are dealing with people's livelihoods. That is not something to make fear-mongoring comments about over and over without hard facts - not speculation by those in the industry who have an interest in the status quo wine trade and who dislike gray market providers. Wake up.

Maybe you've withheld some information, but from the Suckling quotations you provided above-- beginning late March of 2009-- all Suckling is saying is that if someone has not received their 2005 futures, there's a problem. That's neither "incendiary" nor "fear-mongoring" [sic]. It's just obvious and practical.

I think when any purchaser's futures haven't been delivered by the time the next vintage is being delivered, the existence of a problem is blatantly obvious. How do you figure otherwise??

quote:

Originally posted by NYCWINECONSUMER:

quote:

Originally posted by VT2IT:
Nice job of quoting out of context NYCWHINER. As Thirsty Man stated, nowhere does JS say anything about PC, it's only in your paranoid mind where PC is unfairly criticized.

Yes, forgive me. The fear-mongering without facts was actually broader than just PC.

Consider yourself lucky. I to have 2004 Latour futures ordered through PC and have not received them. Hopefully these will make their way to me soon as the order was place in October of 2005.

Amen. Discussion about late '05 Futures began way before James got involved.

Received my last '05 futures from WINEX in Feb...Like all of you, I am now getting offers for '08 futures...I think all James was saying was that if you don't have your '05 Futures by now...you may not see them. Hard to argue with that logic.

Reviewed the thread and can't figure out why NY is SOOO sensitive about PC. I mean really...Get a life. Take a look at Wine Zap...if the futures you are waiting on are being sold in several stores, perhaps you have a problem.

quote:

Originally posted by khmark7:

quote:

without a factual predicate is what I am concerned about.

For what it's worth, when people do not have their 2005 Bordeaux in hand I consider that factual, and not speculation. Also, we have had several conversations on this site before any JS involvement that highlighted the concern about 2005 Bordeaux futures taking longer than usual. It's not just him, we are all concerned about the late arriving futures. James talking to his contacts in Europe and giving us his informed opinion is called reporting. I would like to know specifics, but we all would. Also, I understand that everyone keeps calling PC a "grey market" company. Please find where they disclose that on the site, I'm just curious. Thanks.

Just read some of this again. Do you think it is possible that a retailer could sell 2005 futures, or futures in general, and not have the wine allocated? Then once they have the money, they go into the market and buy it? Or what about taking the money, speculating for two years and then buying the bottled wine later? Futures business is not regulated. Beware. Didn't we learn anything with Madoff and all the rest of the banksters in the world?

quote:

Originally posted by James Suckling:
Just read some of this again. Do you think it is possible that a retailer could sell 2005 futures, or futures in general, and not have the wine allocated? Then once they have the money, they go into the market and buy it? Or what about taking the money, speculating for two years and then buying the bottled wine later? Futures business is not regulated. Beware. Didn't we learn anything with Madoff and all the rest of the banksters in the world?

That is exactly the PC business model. Take money, and then try and allocate it many years later. Most of the times they are successful. But hey, I am just a consumer in a highly competitive market. The PC model is one that I would never get involved in.

quote:

Originally posted by James Suckling:
Just read some of this again. Do you think it is possible that a retailer could sell 2005 futures, or futures in general, and not have the wine allocated? Then once they have the money, they go into the market and buy it? Or what about taking the money, speculating for two years and then buying the bottled wine later? Futures business is not regulated. Beware. Didn't we learn anything with Madoff and all the rest of the banksters in the world?

I'm happy for those folks that have confidence in PC, and I have received plenty of excellent wine from PC over the years. But the 05 Bordeaux PC is delivering now are not FUTURES anymore. They are playing a game with customer money and calling it a FUTURES program.

Real 05 FUTURES were delivered to customers long ago. PC is just speculating on their ability to procure bottles in the secondary market. Problem is, if they should fail to do so, no skin off their nose as they still collect their 15% cancellation money from me.

As one of those who never received my 05 FUTURES, I'm not necessarily afraid they won't deliver, eventually. However, I could cancel my order today and easily buy these wines at a comparable or better price from other retailers' stock. Also, for those customers (like me) who are now being threatened with the 15% cancellation fee if we ask for our money back, this is FEELING uncomfortably like a scam, whether it is or not.

quote:

Originally posted by James Suckling:
Just read some of this again. Do you think it is possible that a retailer could sell 2005 futures, or futures in general, and not have the wine allocated? Then once they have the money, they go into the market and buy it? Or what about taking the money, speculating for two years and then buying the bottled wine later? Futures business is not regulated. Beware. Didn't we learn anything with Madoff and all the rest of the banksters in the world?

Mr. Suckling, your fear-mongeroing using Madoff in this context - a context you apparently have speculation about but no real world experience with - is so reckless and potentially damaging to a business that I think you need to apologize to PC.

PC takes a little longer to deliver - as their customers know very well - but their actual track record is excellent - and usually at substantially lower costs than your advertisers offer. I'm sure your advertisers have different business models, but your ongoing attack in the form of repeated ominous "warnings" is telling.

Yes, in these economic times, anyone with wine outstanding should be vigilent, but that does not, in my opinion, justify your ill-informed and purely speculative fear-mongering. Someone with your bullypulpit should be more circumspect.

PC who? I am not talking about any company in specific. I am just warning people. May be you think that it's all fine and dandy out there. Turn on the news!

I think he is talking about Premier Cru;
I have a mixed case of 05' Bdx that I have been waiting for from Premier Cru for now over 2.5 years and I am slightly concerned

quote:

Originally posted by NYCWINECONSUMER:

quote:

Originally posted by James Suckling:
Just read some of this again. Do you think it is possible that a retailer could sell 2005 futures, or futures in general, and not have the wine allocated? Then once they have the money, they go into the market and buy it? Or what about taking the money, speculating for two years and then buying the bottled wine later? Futures business is not regulated. Beware. Didn't we learn anything with Madoff and all the rest of the banksters in the world?

Mr. Suckling, your fear-mongeroing using Madoff in this context - a context you apparently have speculation about but no real world experience with - is so reckless and potentially damaging to a business that I think you need to apologize to PC.

PC takes a little longer to deliver - as their customers know very well - but their actual track record is excellent - and usually at substantially lower costs than your advertisers offer. I'm sure your advertisers have different business models, but your ongoing attack in the form of repeated ominous "warnings" is telling.

Yes, in these economic times, anyone with wine outstanding should be vigilent, but that does not, in my opinion, justify your ill-informed and purely speculative fear-mongering. Someone with your bullypulpit should be more circumspect.

Dude: chill out.

quote:

Originally posted by NYCWINECONSUMER:

quote:

Originally posted by James Suckling:
Just read some of this again. Do you think it is possible that a retailer could sell 2005 futures, or futures in general, and not have the wine allocated? Then once they have the money, they go into the market and buy it? Or what about taking the money, speculating for two years and then buying the bottled wine later? Futures business is not regulated. Beware. Didn't we learn anything with Madoff and all the rest of the banksters in the world?

Mr. Suckling, your fear-mongeroing using Madoff in this context - a context you apparently have speculation about but no real world experience with - is so reckless and potentially damaging to a business that I think you need to apologize to PC.

PC takes a little longer to deliver - as their customers know very well - but their actual track record is excellent - and usually at substantially lower costs than your advertisers offer. I'm sure your advertisers have different business models, but your ongoing attack in the form of repeated ominous "warnings" is telling.

Yes, in these economic times, anyone with wine outstanding should be vigilent, but that does not, in my opinion, justify your ill-informed and purely speculative fear-mongering. Someone with your bullypulpit should be more circumspect.

You know I was just wondering how I can become more bully pulpit and become more circumspect...

Just FYI... My 2005 Leoville Las Cases is shipping to me Monday from Premier Cru.

Late... Yes.

But shipping.


(Now about that Malescot... )

After a "5-7 weeks" push back in March,, I was now told "1-2 weeks" from Sams.... I'm sure I'll get my order then...

quote:

After a "5-7 weeks" push back in March,, I was now told "1-2 weeks" from Sams.... I'm sure I'll get my order then...

They said the same to me, but I'm curious just how long my wines will sit on the floor of the store before they contact me. Last time it was 2 weeks before I demanded they actually do the paperwork while I waited.

What wines are you waiting for tommybobo??

Case of 05 Talbot,,, so it's not a huge loss if I just get my money back,,,but still..

You must work for PC. LOL.

quote:

Originally posted by NYCWINECONSUMER:

quote:

Originally posted by James Suckling:
Just read some of this again. Do you think it is possible that a retailer could sell 2005 futures, or futures in general, and not have the wine allocated? Then once they have the money, they go into the market and buy it? Or what about taking the money, speculating for two years and then buying the bottled wine later? Futures business is not regulated. Beware. Didn't we learn anything with Madoff and all the rest of the banksters in the world?

Mr. Suckling, your fear-mongeroing using Madoff in this context - a context you apparently have speculation about but no real world experience with - is so reckless and potentially damaging to a business that I think you need to apologize to PC.

PC takes a little longer to deliver - as their customers know very well - but their actual track record is excellent - and usually at substantially lower costs than your advertisers offer. I'm sure your advertisers have different business models, but your ongoing attack in the form of repeated ominous "warnings" is telling.

Yes, in these economic times, anyone with wine outstanding should be vigilent, but that does not, in my opinion, justify your ill-informed and purely speculative fear-mongering. Someone with your bullypulpit should be more circumspect.

I finally cancelled my 2005 Bdx from PC. I took the 15% hit. Of the 60 cases of 2005 Bordeaux I bought from more than a dozen sources, only PC failed to deliver. As prices continued to fall it became apparent to me that soon enough I would be able to take the 15% hit and still buy the same wines for less than the refunded amount. I hope it hurt having to return $10,000 to me. It took a lot of phone calls from me to finally make it happen.

Those are stone cold facts. No hype, supposition, hyperbole or embellishment involved.

And only 1 week after I told you I got more of mine in???... Bad decision in my book. Of course I say that not having nearly as much at risk as you. Sorry for your 15% loss.

So what futures wines did you cancel that might just happen to be available if I call them?

That doesn't make sense. How can they charge you 15 percent? They didn't deliver? That seems scandalous.

NYCWINECONSUMER!!!!!! Go!

quote:

Originally posted by MorBorDo:
I finally cancelled my 2005 Bdx from PC. I took the 15% hit. Of the 60 cases of 2005 Bordeaux I bought from more than a dozen sources, only PC failed to deliver. As prices continued to fall it became apparent to me that soon enough I would be able to take the 15% hit and still buy the same wines for less than the refunded amount. I hope it hurt having to return $10,000 to me. It took a lot of phone calls from me to finally make it happen.

Those are stone cold facts. No hype, supposition, hyperbole or embellishment involved.

Similarly I cancelled my 05 Bordeaux order a couple weeks ago. Fortunately, my order was much smaller, and I was able to apply the refund to a few nice Burgundies they had in stock, so they did not charge the 15% penalty. I was also able to find the 05 Bordeaux elsewhere at a lower price than PC's "futures" price.

The PC model is clearly that of a broker rather than traditional "futures", as the rest of the wine world uses that term. And this is clearly their business model for most of their wines, new or old, as practically their entire inventory is listed as "pre-delivery". That's fine, I've found some great wines through brokers. I just wish they'd been clearer about that up front -- lesson learned for me. No hard feelings -- although if my futures order had been for $10,000, I might be a bit less understanding...

I still have an outstanding 3L 2003 Bordeaux with PC, they have offered 6 750ml to make up for the delay which I have turned down....