I am still waiting on a bunch of mid-higher end 2005s from SAM's and Premier Cru.

We'll see.

quote:

Originally posted by indybob:
So, the other day I stop into my favorite LWS and check up on the status of my delinquent '05 Leoville Poyferre. The manager, who thought they'd show up in March with the already-arrived '06 Poyferre (and '05 magnums incidently), finally scratched his head, and generously offered me an equivalent value of any wines he's got in stock, at his cost.

So, I basically converted the cash I spent on futures of a six-pack of Poyferre into nine bottles of '05 Smith-Haut-Lafitte Blanc, plus a very cheap bottle of '05 Doisy-Vedrines. End result: I'm happy (I LOVE both wines), and they're happy, as they would have gone out and paid retail for the Poyferre if I'd insisted.

I was wondering how you scored those. Nice!

Soup,

Finishing up a bottle of the SHL now, very nice. Besides some QPRs, and beer, not buying or drinking much these days. We are saving for a car this fall, and am trying to get in shape for a long-distance cycling event this July, so less ETOH.

Hope all is well!

My primary source for Bdx futures just notified me that my magnum of Smith-Haut-Lafitte is not yet in the shop. They thought they could get it by June 1, but offered me a magnum of one of the wines they had in stock at no extra charge, in place of my Smith, if I wanted. So I took a mag of Rauzan Segla instead.

I'm happy with the deal. Rauzan-Segla would have cost me considerably more than the Smith at the time I ordered it. I figure they're probably happy they don't have to track down some random bottle of S-H-L off the grey market, and I'm doubly happy, as the provenance of such a bottle would be questionable. I got my case of 2005 S-H-L 750's last summer, no problems.

OK, so now I'm officially in JS's camp. For those of you still waiting for your 2005 futures, be very, very scared. A reputable shop may reimburse you fairly, but you might very well end up not getting what you ordered.

You going to order 2008 Bordeaux futures from the source that never delivered your 2005s? Doesn't seem very wise, if you do.

quote:

Originally posted by James Suckling:
You going to order 2008 Bordeaux futures from the source that never delivered your 2005s? Doesn't seem very wise, if you do.

James,
Do you think that maybe 2005 was a perhaps not a fair test of the reliability of an individual source for futures? I mean, with the hysteria and the astronomical price inflation associated with the vintage, the multitiered distribution system was probably stressed to the max. In my situation, I had 9 cases delivered to my full satisfaction, and only 1 magnum waylaid. My source was more than fair in compensating me. I have had excellent experiences with this source, since I began using them 5 years ago, and I have friends with nothing but positive remarks as well.
So, in summary, yes I will use the same source.

For those who have significant orders not yet delivered, that is another story.

I intend to buy a case of 2005 Rauzan Segla soon.

I intend on using the same sources as well assuming I utilize futures again. I ordered approx. 40 cases of different 05 bordeaux and received every single bottle, no issues and satisfied. I will admit that I did pay slightly more for them then some but I also received them as expected.

March 7. When did you get your 2005s delivered then, out of interest?

quote:

Originally posted by marcb7:
I ordered approx. 40 cases of different 05 bordeaux and received every single bottle...

That's vintage commitment!

James,

I recieved all of these wines in between April of 2008 and Jan 2009. Majority of them were in my cellar by summer of 08'. The Malescot and L'Evangile were the last ones I got.

quote:

Originally posted by KSC02:

quote:

Originally posted by marcb7:
I ordered approx. 40 cases of different 05 bordeaux and received every single bottle...

That's vintage commitment!

Hopefully I will be happy in 10+ yrs KSC!!

I received all of my 2005 Bordeaux futures except PC. I called and called, ranted and raved, and finally cancelled my $10,000 order and put $8,500 back into my checking account (paid the 15% restocking fee). It's a shame that after holding my money for over 2 years without delivery they take $1,500 from you after you have had enough.

quote:

Originally posted by MorBorDo:
I received all of my 2005 Bordeaux futures except PC. I called and called, ranted and raved, and finally cancelled my $10,000 order and put $8,500 back into my checking account (paid the 15% restocking fee). It's a shame that after holding my money for over 2 years without delivery they take $1,500 from you after you have had enough.

You ordered $10,000 of 2005 Pontet Canet?

And they didn't make good on your order??

And you actually agreed to pay a $1500 restocking fee???

Nothing about that story makes sense to me. Please elaborate.

quote:

Originally posted by James Suckling:
I think if you have not received your 2005 futures by now, you have some major problems. That is not right. In fact, I doubt you will ever see your purchase.

Frankly, I am shocked that the Wine Spectator is taking an active position against this retailer. Having dealt with them for years, and having just received another several hundred bottles of wine due to me (after receiving hundreds more in the fall), including some 05 futures, I am confident they will deliver the remaining.

Why is WS grinding this axe?

In fact, 2005 Bordeaux still in the chain is declining in price, not rising. I would not buy 2008 futures - just like I would not buy 06 or 07 - because these wines will be available for less than futures price in the coming years (plus, 06 and 07 pricing was for suckers), but, if I was interested, I would certainly buy from PC if the price was right.

I din't think WS or James Suckling are attacking any single retailer. Instead JS is merely stating that if you have not received your 2005 futures, then something is wrong. The point is simple - all sales through the normal channels have already been pushed through. So if your futures were bought and sent directly from Chateau, to negociant, to importer/wholesaler, to your retailer they should already be here. In other words - any wine that is still coming has not been "in the chain" it has already been delivered to an end user who decided to re-sell. It is grey market and hence, there are questions about provenance...

I am not sure why you are so defensive - do you own an interest in a particular store? or are you concerned about pending orders if there is a "run on the store"?

quote:

Originally posted by thirsty man:
I din't think WS or James Suckling are attacking any single retailer. Instead JS is merely stating that if you have not received your 2005 futures, then something is wrong. The point is simple - all sales through the normal channels have already been pushed through. So if your futures were bought and sent directly from Chateau, to negociant, to importer/wholesaler, to your retailer they should already be here. In other words - any wine that is still coming has not been "in the chain" it has already been delivered to an end user who decided to re-sell. It is grey market and hence, there are questions about provenance...

I am not sure why you are so defensive - do you own an interest in a particular store? or are you concerned about pending orders if there is a "run on the store"?

Actually, I think you are being defensive. I am finally relating a simple observation that has occured to me as I've followed this thread -the Wine Spectator has taken a position repeatedly against this retailer (and others) by what look like scare tactics: that if you don't have your futures now, you should be very very scared.

WS's comments suggest the customer should be concerned that they won't get the wine, and has nothing to do with grey market delivery, the provenance of which is rarely an issue with this retailer in my considerable real world experience.

I have zero financial interest in PC and I am not in the wine trade - I am only a happy customer of many years.

My zero financial interst is actually in direct contrast to the Wine Spectator's appearance of a conflict of interest. Wine Spectator takes significant advertising dollars from stores like Zachys and Sokolin, etc., who are direct competitors of Premier Cru.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: NYCWINECONSUMER,

Perhaps I have not been on the board long enough - but I have not seen any bashing of PC (or any other retailer) by Wine Spectator. I have seen other posters bash various retailers (often for what appears to be good reason). In reviewing this thread - I did not see Suckling or anyone from WS bash PC (or any other retailer). If that has happened elsewhere - please point it out as I would like to know what is being said by WS. If you cannot point to where WS is taking an action position against PC - I think you owe WS and JS an apology.

I also did not see anyone from WS suggest that people should shop at Zachy's Sokolin, etc. All I saw was the comment that all of the 05s have been pushed through the channel and 06s/07s are now in the channel and if you are still waiting on 05s - you should be concerned. Frankly - I would be concered about how the 05s had been handled if they are still in France at this point (or worse wandering around Europe on delivery trucks while they try to gather a full container load).

I'm glad you have had good experiences with PC - but I think the point Suckling is making is very reasonable and is not in anyway limited to PC (in fact Sam's along with others were mentioned numerous times in the thread).....

quote:

Originally posted by thirsty man:
Perhaps I have not been on the board long enough - but I have not seen any bashing of PC (or any other retailer) by Wine Spectator. I have seen other posters bash various retailers (often for what appears to be good reason). In reviewing this thread - I did not see Suckling or anyone from WS bash PC (or any other retailer). If that has happened elsewhere - please point it out as I would like to know what is being said by WS. If you cannot point to where WS is taking an action position against PC - I think you owe WS and JS an apology.

I also did not see anyone from WS suggest that people should shop at Zachy's Sokolin, etc.

I think you must have re-read the wrong thread. All of the following evolve around some 05 Bordeaux not yet delivered by PC and, to a lesser degree, Sam's. It is repeated and pointed fear-mongering by a representative of a publication that (1) accepts significant advertising from non-gray market stores like Zachys and Sokolin (i.e., by someone who has a financial interest in PC's competitors), by someone who (2) apparently has no real world experience with Premier Cru. PC does deliver on a later time table and its customers know that. But they deliver, or make good if they can't. Let's not be obtuse about the following:

James Suckling Senior EditorWine Spectator Posted Apr 15, 2009 10:33 AM Apr 15, 2009 10:33 AM Hide Post
You going to order 2008 Bordeaux futures from the source that never delivered your 2005s? Doesn't seem very wise, if you do.

James Suckling Senior EditorWine Spectator Posted Apr 06, 2009 01:40 PM Apr 06, 2009 01:40 PM Hide Post
I spoke to some wine merchants and chateau owners this week in Bordeaux on how you have not been delivered your 2005 futures yet, and they were really shocked. Most have already shipped their 2006s to the states. YOU ARE IN TROUBLE.

James Suckling Senior EditorWine Spectator Posted Mar 31, 2009 05:15 PM Mar 31, 2009 05:15 PM Hide Post
I was at a party last night with a number of key Bordeaux winemakers such as Paul Pontailler of Margaux and Alan Vautier of Ausone, and they were pretty shocked that some of you had not received your 2005 futures. They think you have been had. I hope you get your wines.

James Suckling Senior EditorWine Spectator Posted Mar 26, 2009 11:07 AM Mar 26, 2009 11:07 AM Hide Post
My friend, the chateaus shipped the wines ages ago and I assume the same is for negociants. If a wine merchant hasn't delivered 2005 Bordeaux futures yet, then you should ask them why. It's not right!

James Suckling Senior EditorWine Spectator Posted Mar 25, 2009 09:36 AM Mar 25, 2009 09:36 AM Hide Post
They should be delivered by now. Something went wrong. I would give them a call if I were you.

James Suckling Senior EditorWine Spectator Posted Mar 25, 2009 05:41 AM Mar 25, 2009 05:41 AM Hide Post
But why haven't you received them? The 2006s are shipping now. Wine merchants should have no excuse for not sending you your wine. Plus, they have had your money for almost two years now? That is bad business practice in my opinion.

James Suckling Senior EditorWine Spectator Posted Mar 24, 2009 05:18 PM Mar 24, 2009 05:18 PM Hide Post
I think if you have not received your 2005 futures by now, you have some major problems. That is not right. In fact, I doubt you will ever see your purchase.

James Suckling Senior EditorWine Spectator Posted Mar 24, 2009 01:29 PM Mar 24, 2009 01:29 PM Hide Post
Anyone missing their 2005 futures? And anyone selling their 2005s? Prices have dropped significantly in the secondary market for the top 2005s.

Wow! NYC you have too much time on your hands to commit to this conspiracy theory. Not buying it.

quote:

Originally posted by khmark7:
Wow! NYC you have too much time on your hands to commit to this conspiracy theory. Not buying it.

I am not accusing anyone of anything, khmark7. Just shedding a little light on what seemed like a bit of fear-mongering about a retailer about which the mongeror apparently has little direct information.

For example, I just received the 2004 Latour futures I ordered from PC. Perfect, and a bargain at around $135 or so, if memory serves. Before you point a sharp stick at someone, best to make sure you are correct, especially if you have a potential conflict of interest in doing so.

No - I think I did read the correct thread. I think you are trying to create controversay where none exists. None of the quotes you posted mentions PC. While PC is mentioned by other posters, so are Sam's, Binny's and a few LWS. In fact your first quote is directed at someone who claims that it was their LWS that did not deliver and not PC.

I find it hilarous that you criticize WS for posts made by BBs. It is even more humours when you consider your assertion that the "fear mongering is by someone who (2) apparently has no real world experience with Premier Cru. PC does deliver on a later time table and its customers know that. But they deliver, or make good if they can't. Let's not be obtuse about the following" All of the people who mention PC have a very real world experience with them - they have paid for their wine and they do not have it yet.

I suggest that you go back and read the thread carefully - no one at WS makes any comment about PC. All comments by JS are directed at ALL undelivered 05 futures (note this does not include pre-arrivals - which is entirely different and a common sale item at PC). If you paid for futures for 2005 and they have not been delivered - then you have a problem. The wines are generally available and either the store does not have the cash to go out in the market and purchase them or they simply don't care - either is cause for concern. It bears repeating - this does not include "pre-arrival" non future sales for 2005s.

I stand by my statement that WS has not bashed PC (or any retailer) and I think you owe JS and WS an apology. Your comments were incendiary and not based on fact.

G

quote:

Originally posted by thirsty man:
I stand by my statement that WS has not bashed PC (or any retailer) and I think you owe JS and WS an apology. Your comments were incendiary and not based on fact.

G

Stand wherever you wish, I care not, but the "incendiary" posts were by Mr. Suckling. Over and over and over again. I am commenting on them. Kill the messenger if you wish.

We are dealing with people's livelihoods. That is not something to make fear-mongoring comments about over and over without hard facts - not speculation by those in the industry who have an interest in the status quo wine trade and who dislike gray market providers. Wake up.

Nice job of quoting out of context NYCWHINER. As Thirsty Man stated, nowhere does JS say anything about PC, it's only in your paranoid mind where PC is unfairly criticized.

Do you really believe that if PC advertised in WS this thread would be different? It is a strange world in which you live. Every post of yours is accusing somebody of something underhanded. You really need to lighten up a little and stop looking for evil intentions in all that you see.

quote:

Originally posted by VT2IT:
Nice job of quoting out of context NYCWHINER. As Thirsty Man stated, nowhere does JS say anything about PC, it's only in your paranoid mind where PC is unfairly criticized.

Yes, forgive me. The fear-mongering without facts was actually broader than just PC.