We went out for dinner for my birthday Friday and I had another mediocre meal. It seems like the "Fine Dining" restaurants in my neck of the woods serve food that I could have made at home and prepared better AND had a better wine at half the price. Now, I should say that I don't feel that I'm the greatest cook - in fact I am humbled by much of the cooking that I see at culinary schools - at a recent stocks and sauces course I took at night school, I realized how little I really knew. But since moving to a smaller city (about 80,000) after living in Vancouver (several million), I have yet to have a "fine dining" experience that I've truly appreciated. OTOH, I have had very good Indian, Thai, Vietnamese and Sushi (all much better than what I could have made at home) in this city.

It seems to me that I should expect something better from a professional than an amateur, but I wonder if all those years of eating great food in a metropolitan centre and watching some of the creations that I see on Food Network have spoiled me. Do others who live in moderately sized communities (or any size for that matter) have similar challenges?

While NYC is just a few subway hops away. I have to admit I'm disappointed with my area's fine dining experience. Forest Hills is extremely expensive for what it's worth and the wine lists (even the retail shops) are usually subpar and over priced. But it is what it is, and I find myself picking places that'll make stuff I can't or refuse to make in my apartment. Anything involving frying, the kebab places with their charcoal grills or the place that makes hand made noodles. They also happen to be the incredibly friendly on the wallet too.

I know Charlie Trotter's is known as a great restaurant, but I must have caught it on an off night.

A very disappointing dinner for me. I need to try again.

quote:

Originally posted by wine+art:
I know Charlie Trotter's is known as a great restaurant, but I must have caught it on an off night.

A very disappointing dinner for me. I need to try again.

We were very disappointed. We'll never go back. Once burnt...

Well, I'm in St Louis, so "yes" is your answer.

I'll say this to your general point: I'm usually disappointed in the upper mid-level restaurants that think they are fine dining but aren't quite. Hard to define, but the kind of place that usually is about a $125 per person with a $70 bottle of wine. I've had very good food in some of these but usually there is something that frustrates me - if the food is good, it's the slacker waiter, etc.

The real fine dining places usually don't disappoint, but the price of admission is usually much higher and because of the special atmosphere, I also spend way more on wine if I'm not BYO.

There are plenty of places where I live that have "good" food, but few that have "great" food.

Either I've become a tougher critic over the years or restaurants have gone down in quality, but it is difficult to wow me at most restaurants. When I was in college (eating dorm food most of the time), a dinner at a place like Mortons was amazing. Today, it is ho-hum...

G-man-

We live in Forest Hills as well and I agree it's not a 'fine dining' destination. We do like Danny Brown's a great deal and Nick's is amongst the best pizza around. Eddie's Sweet Shop deserves a plug as well.

When we explore the boro, we focus more on the good dives or classic of their genres. Elias Corner and Jackson Diner would be examples of the former and Cavo or Sapori D'Ischia the later.

As for wine shops, I like the Forest Hills Wine Room (on 69th). The people who run it are nice and knowledgable. You won't find high end bottles there but lots of good everyday wines. Gary can get you better stuff on order as well.

Enjoy,

Neil

W+A is it that Trotter's was bad or just not what you expected? We were there in August and while everything was very well-prepared I can't remember one thing I ate. Eh.

Our experience-

We were seated on time at a table next to 2 loud Middle Eastern men with headdresses who actually smelled. We asked to be moved a minute after we were seated. There were other tables open and the server grudgingly moved us.

There were 9 courses in the dinner, 6 of the appetrizer/main course order and 3 desserts. The first 6 courses were all good, but nothing special. The 3 dessert courses were all outstanding. They gave us some tiny rolls with dinner. My wife (5' 5 1/2" and 116 pounds) ate 4 of them and was hungry after the meal. I don't go to a fine dining establishement to stuff, but this bordered on the ridiculous.

For what we paid, I regard our experience as a total waste and Charlie Trotter's as the single most overrated restaurant in which I've had the misfortune to dine.

I wouldn't go back again either. Even though I don't have those negatives to report, I feel like I should be able to remember what I ate after a dinner like that.

quote:

Originally posted by Neil K.:
G-man-

We live in Forest Hills as well and I agree it's not a 'fine dining' destination. We do like Danny Brown's a great deal and Nick's is amongst the best pizza around. Eddie's Sweet Shop deserves a plug as well.

When we explore the boro, we focus more on the good dives or classic of their genres. Elias Corner and Jackson Diner would be examples of the former and Cavo or Sapori D'Ischia the later.

As for wine shops, I like the Forest Hills Wine Room (on 69th). The people who run it are nice and knowledgable. You won't find high end bottles there but lots of good everyday wines. Gary can get you better stuff on order as well.

Enjoy,

Neil

I agree with you whole heartedly on all your points.

But the borough's do have a few treasures. Uncle Jacks in bayside is spot on with food + service and I don't mind paying the price. Brooklyn is much better in fine dining then Queens.

It's a shame that all the restaurants on Austin St are just so horribly overpriced for the money.

Gary's a good guy and one of the wine shops in a 5 mile radius that carries vin santo =)

quote:

Originally posted by Board-O:
Our experience-

We were seated on time at a table next to 2 loud Middle Eastern men with headdresses who actually smelled. We asked to be moved a minute after we were seated. There were other tables open and the server grudgingly moved us.

"There were 9 courses in the dinner, 6 of the appetrizer/main course order and 3 desserts. The first 6 courses were all good, but nothing special. The 3 dessert courses were all outstanding. They gave us some tiny rolls with dinner. My wife (5' 5 1/2" and 116 pounds) ate 4 of them and was hungry after the meal. I don't go to a fine dining establishement to stuff, but this bordered on the ridiculous.

For what we paid, I regard our experience as a total waste and Charlie Trotter's as the single most overrated restaurant in which I've had the misfortune to dine.

Board-0,

After reviewing your experience, I identified these main points:

"We were seated on time" - a plus I assume

"the server grudgingly moved us" - another plus?

"The first 6 courses were all good, but nothing special." - maybe a neutral

"The 3 dessert courses were all outstanding." - definitly a plus

"tiny rolls with dinner" - OK, here's a negative


I salute your good taste and discrimination. Surely there is more to this story than "tiny rolls" to merit this remark: "For what we paid, I regard our experience as a total waste and Charlie Trotter's as the single most overrated restaurant in which I've had the misfortune to dine." After all, you can always ask for more rolls.

I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'm just trying to understand the scathing review.

For the record, I've only been fortunate enough to eat at a Trotter establishment once, and found it a to be a delightful albeit very expensive experience.

I was quite full after my meal at Trotter's but I also had wine pairings. Maybe I am easily filled up?

quote:

Originally posted by Purple Teeth:
After all, you can always ask for more rolls.

We did. That's how we got four. If the meal had cost 20% of what it actually cost, I wouldn't be complaining, nor would I be returning.

Grudgingly reseating us was a negative. It should have been done with a smile and no negativity.

You regard the first six courses as good but nothing special as a neutral? Wow

I completely agree about the seating.

quote:

Originally posted by Een:
W+A is it that Trotter's was bad or just not what you expected? We were there in August and while everything was very well-prepared I can't remember one thing I ate. Eh.

Een, as you know, I'm a tough critic.

I did not like the pace of the meal, I noticed our waiter far too much, the asparagus was over cooked and the pine nuts were not toasted.

It is often the little things that make or break a great meal or wine to me. It is all about the details.

Just not a special night overall.

I have been to Blackbird several times, and better than CT in my mind each time.

I totally agree re:details and know what you mean about the service. What really turned me off was their offer of a kitchen tour after the meal. I didn't want to do this. It's a small kitchen. I've worked in a kitchen. It holds no glamor for me and I didn't relish being in the way of staff trying to push out food. One of my dining companions insisted and the hostess wouldn't let me just wait outside.

Next time you are in town, we'll have to visit Moto. My first time there I wrote it off as being too much of an experience as opposed to great cuisine. Chef Cantu has really grown since then and the last meal there was so much more refined and memorable.

In all I prefer places like Blackbird. The food is executed very well but it is considered food, not performance art. I have little patience for what is considered fine dining.

Moto it is!

I had the feeling when I was at Trotter, all the focus was perhaps on the kitchen. While that is great, someone also needs to be running the floor. The pace of the meal is important to me, and I do not want the waiter to be part of my dining party!

Definitely not. While there are exceptions for me (a couple places where I am a regular and then we socialize only when I'm alone or with Matt but not with guests), I just want to be left to enjoy my meal.

quote:

Originally posted by Board-O:

We were seated on time at a table next to 2 loud Middle Eastern men with headdresses who actually smelled. We asked to be moved a minute after we were seated. There were other tables open and the server grudgingly moved us.

Glimpse inside Indybob's head: <should I? Nah. . .well, I didn't notice them smelling weird at all, and why the hell would someone point out their ethnicity. . .maybe. . .nah, I'll let it slide>

Have a good evening Board-O.

I only mentioned it because their customs may be different than ours. Maybe they don't consider that rude. Why are you so sensitive about this?

I just spent six weeks in the Middle East (Iraq, Kuwait and Kurdistan) and didn't notice the locals to be smelly or loud. Why not just say "two loud men who smelled."? Nothing can be gained by bringing ethnicity into the equation, can it?

Obviously this has hit some sort of a sore spot with you. Some cultures may not consider frequent bathing as important as we do. They may not consider loud speaking as rude. I don't know. Maybe they didn't come from one of those countries you mentioned in whose cultures you are expert after 6 weeks. I'm certain after an average of 2 weeks per country you are an authority on their bathing and speaking customs.

Nice try. You didn't answer my question: What is gained by introducing the diner's ethnicity into your tale?

Actually, I did. It's a possible explanation of their behavior. Maybe that's normal over there. I'm not the Middle Eastern authority that you are. What's behind this problem you have with ethnicity?