I don't think the d'Yquem was on the tasting list. I think it was a corked bottle, returned by a customer who ordered it off the wine list, and they tried to pass it off on us. That would explain why they didn't open another one.

Neither of us remembers who the producer of the gevrey was -sorry. It was good, unlike most of the others, but nothing outstanding.

quote:

---

Originally posted by chef neil:
I don't think the d'Yquem was on the tasting list. I think it was a corked bottle, returned by a customer who ordered it off the wine list, and they tried to pass it off on us.

---

If that's in fact the case, why would anyone want to go back to this restaurant even if their food is amazing. Is it just me???

---------------------------
www.winebid.com

With wine service that bad, it really does behoove you to tell us what this place is, so that we can avoid blowing a couple hundre bucks. At least let us know what city it is in.

new york

the intials are J G

I think it's fair to say that it wasn't Judson Grill!

Wow. That is amazing. Thanks for the heads up, because you were indeed at a place that many of us are likely to visit, or return. Now we'll be forewarned to stick to the list.

I still want to say that I believe isolated incidents are prevalent, and I don't think any restaurant, or person should be judged on one single event.
BUT IT REALLY SUCKED

Ahh, very good to know. I would've trusted the somm. there, on the restaurant's reputation alone.

And for the person who asked about experiences similar to Daniel, I've heard that Ducasse is supposed to be that good although I haven't been and will offer my comments on whether Per Se is that good (i should hope so) at the end of March.

The second best meal after our Daniel tasting menu (which involved similar experiences of an escort to the ladies room hallway and VERY gracious staff) was Picasso in Las Vegas. An outstanding experience (even if you took the excitement of the first night of our honeymoon out of it )

quote:

---

Originally posted by chef neil:
I still want to say that I believe isolated incidents are prevalent, and I don't think any restaurant, or person should be judged on one single event.

---

Not completely aggreeing, but at least partially.

Off night in the kitchen? Fine.

Not so good choices on wine pairing? Fine.

Try to pass off a customer returned corked wine to another unsuspecting customer is a completely different story.

---------------------------
www.winebid.com

pyang, ever thought about becoming an ad exec for mastercard?

==================
AIM: Drunken Mariachi

DJ,
Don't give Him any ideas!!

You wondered if sommeliers (or at least this one) want(ed) to impress with hard to get or obscure stuff, and in all honesty I'd have to say that I do not know.
I CAN however say that I've shared and enjoyed the love (or passion) that TRUE sommelieres have for wine.
They are good listeners, helpful, and direct you to what they consider the best QPR>
As my friend pyang mentions, recycling a corked bottle is certainly an issue that should no be taken lightly and probably addressed to management.
That action borders on fraud.

Salud.

Restaurants have budgets for everything. Even wine.

High End restaurants that deal w/ tasting menus can't afford to pair the high end wines with their tasting menu. I'd say 1/2 - 2/3's of your business on those nights will be tasting menu if you're at a "special" joint. Wine pairings usually run 30-50 extra. For a 5-6 course dinner, that's about $10 a glass. You can't make money off the good bottles by selling them by the glass that way. You would be lucky to break even.

==================
AIM: Drunken Mariachi

The one thing you are all not thinking about is that most chefs do not understand wine. They do not understand wine is an ingredient- like truffle butter- that needs to be taken into account whan they create a dish. At some point in the past 15 years many people decided to become a "chef" because they thought they could earn a good living, and become famous. All you had to do was work alot, cut yourself, read some books, cook for you momma (momma always loves what you cook!! You are so creative, who would have thought of lobster and chocolate?) and drink alot- which most of them were already doing. At some point you would allow your ego to define your art. When a ego driven chef writes a tasting menu, he or she is trying to challenge themselves and their diner. Because they have no concept of wine, they do not understand how mushrooms bring out the earth (good), or how spinach will bring out the iron (bad). Most "Sommeliers" are trying to make an name for themselves; the more less expensive wine they can "match" with a dish the better. They will move more wine through the house, thus more profits, etc...
Aww, forget it. I'm just drunk and bitter.

quite opposite, COOKie, it's very refreshing. i'm glad you jumped in. see you around.

Free Martha!

I have yet to have met, or cooked w/ a cook or chef who does not have a love for wine.

And I can guarantee that if you're at a restaurant w/ a tasting menu. That Chef has an understanding of wine.

==================
AIM: Drunken Mariachi

DJ-
While that is your experience, you must realize you live in wine country. Everything revolves around wine. However, Napa dining is a prime example of misunderstood pairings. California cuisine and California wines do not pair well. The overabundance of fruit, oak and alcohol paired with higher acid foods makes for a disjointed match. Napa is primarily know for its Cabernet, correct? Then why are there not more steakhouses? Napa Merlot? Can you get a decent rack of lamb without too many fresh herbs?
And what really goes with Napa Chardonnay? Don't tell me shell fish because the richness form the ML fermenation destroys any inherant sweetness in the fish. Also, I have cooked and eaten around this wonderful country of ours, and I promise you most chefs do not understand wine. In Chicago there are no more than 6.

ha! top this, DJ
when it comes to restaurant dining, in many cases, incompetence reins on both sides.
but chefs are in tough position. how do you please crowds brought up on PB&J sandwiches and Mac&Cheese from a box with refined, subtle dishes? for most diners, delicate flavours won't cut it , be it food or wine. isn't it why Cal Cabs are so popular? americans love big flavours, and it's fine. the problem is that most regard subtlety and lightness in cooking as inferior product. remember that scene in the movie, with Tony Shaloub as a chef, when the customer insists on obscene amounts of grated cheese on his pasta how about my neighboor chef telling me, he had to take proscuitto off the menu, as he was tired of it being send back to be replaced with bacon customers complained it was too THIN! go figure them out.
the same can be said about so called wine enthusiasts, who insist on drinking BIG wines all the time and then complain about Burgundy

Free Martha!

Grunhauser: I agree.
The movie was called "The Big Night" I think.
It was a terrific movie. The only movie I remember involving an Italian immigrant family where no one gets shot.

Irwin

"Life is short....start with the dessert."

Irwin, rent "Johnny Stecchino" with Roberto Begnini. a great take on sicilian mafia! and while it's not about immigrants, it sure is a funny movie about those left behind

Free Martha!

Cookie - The point of this thread is regarding tasting menus w/ wine pairings. I highly doubt you will find a Napa bottle on a wine pairing list for a tasting menu. Why? 2 reasons... Napa juice is way too expensive to pour by the glass (for the most part), and they're often too overpowering.

Tasting menus are mainly seen in high end restaurants. Restaurants run by Chef's who need that understanding of wine. I should take back my comment of "i have yet to meet a cook/chef...". I have worked with quite a few cooks / chefs who don't know much at all about wine... but I have also worked w/ quite a few who take the time to study wine as much as I do. If a cook wants to reach the top, and wants to become that guy with the funny hat in the high end dining scene, he' sgoing to acquire that understanding of wine. He will realize that it will help him make more money in the long run. A cook who's out there being a cowboy, and is just out there to cook, he's not looking to run a restaurant that would have the capability to have a tasting menu w/ wine pairings.

The more time you spend on these boards, the more you will know that I do not drink much Napa juice... and I grew up here! But I do have to differ on your claim that California Cuisine does not pair w/ California wine. California Cuisine is pretty much grilling anything that at one time walked or was planted. Dry Creek Zinfandels are great w/ California Cuisine, as are some California Syrah's that are not blueberry milkshakes... for whites, forget about Chardonnay. Sauvignon Blanc is where it's at if you wanta workable california white. Not all Napa Cabs are big and fat. There are good Napa Cabs w/ nice acidity and not overly oaky or fruit forward that do pair well w/ food. It's the same misconception that people have about Australia.

==================
AIM: Drunken Mariachi

quote:

---

Originally posted by grunhauser:
ha! top this, DJ
when it comes to restaurant dining, in many cases, incompetence reins on both sides.
but chefs are in tough position. how do you please crowds brought up on PB&J sandwiches and Mac&Cheese from a box with refined, subtle dishes?

---

OK I could go all Thomas Keller here...

But right now the "cool" thing to do w/ food is to take your classic dishes that you grew up with and deconstruct them into something familiar, yet totally upscale. Like your Macoroni & Cheese, Corn Dogs, Pig in a Blanket, Biscuits n' Gravy, etc.

If you keep the flavors familiar, you can work with the people. Just don't scare the simpletons w/ unfamiliar dishes and you're in like flynn, and sometimes declared a God.

==================
AIM: Drunken Mariachi

DJ-
Please eat in more places that have tasting menus. Places like Charlie Trotters and The French Laundry do serve Napa AVA wines. They have to if they want to stay competitive. They also serve AOC, DOC and DO wines.
Any cusine anywhere is made up by what once walked or was planted and grilled. California Cusine is based more on the Italian concept of fresh, local and seasonal than anything else.
Bottom line- there are still lots of chefs- at all levels- who need to learn more about wine, and even more sommeliers who need to learn about food. Pairing is not an exact science, everyone tastes thing differently. At one time the common wisdom dictated red wine with meat, white wine with fish- we all know that is short-sighted. Please just be careful with vinegar, ver jus, aspragus, artichokes and spinach. Oh, and put that truffle butter down before someone gets hurt!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cookie:
However, Napa dining is a prime example of misunderstood pairings. California cuisine and California wines do not pair well. The overabundance of fruit, oak and alcohol paired with higher acid foods makes for a disjointed match.

---

That's a very unfair statement to make, and as you said in another post, paring is not an exact science, so how can you possibly qualify your statement 100%?

Based on your palate and experience yes, making that general statement for everyone else is false.

---------------------------
www.winebid.com
2004 Whirlwind Tour

Woah there... california cuisine is based off a collective blend of mexican, italian, french, and asian food. Not to mention a little Indian influence as well. It's a hodgepodge, a melting pot of cultural cuisine that created this light textured, refreshing, fresh ingredient based food that's more health conscious and festive than it is good. We love the grill. California cuisine is focused on garden fresh ingredients, free range proteins, and the grill.

IF anything, the person (Alice Waters)who "Started" California Cuisine movement based it off French Cuisine. Considering that's her background of attaining the freshest ingredient possible. Although, if you ask Jeremiah Tower, he will surely tell you differently.

I've never dined at Trotters, and I probably never will. His food doesn't make me knock down his door. I've read his books, and I don't recall a napa red suggested as a pairing for any of his dishes. Usually they are european suggestions, and pretty ludicrous ones to boot (for a deconstructed cassoulet, his wine guy recommends an aged bordeaux first growth, Haut Brion, iirc). It's obvious he knows who he's catering to. Old rich folk. Personally, I'd recommend something a bit more attainable at a lesser cost.

However, back to tasting menus and wine pairings. Restaurants do not have to have Napa wines on wine pairing lists to stay competitive. That's a poor statement. Yes, Napa should be represented on a wine list... but on a wine pairing? There's nothing competitive about it. When people are looking at the tasting menus / wine pairings... they're not looking at where the juice came from. They see the pairing and go "hey, they recommend this. They can't be wrong, they're professionals."

To say that Napa is a prime example of misunderstood pairings is unfair. The main goal in food service is to make people happy. You make them happy, and they have no complaints at the end of thenight, and they give their server a big fat tip. That server cuts the kitchen in at the end of the night, and everyone wins. You mess up in one area, it screws it up for everybody. But, the most important thing... you are flawless in all aspects of their dining experience, and they will come back. That is what makes or breaks a restaurant. Return business.

I fany of this seems jarbled or mumbled or incoherent right now... it's because i'm completly sloshed. I've started my birthday a few hours earlyi by hittin downtown napa on saturday night and not having to pay for a damn thing.

==================
AIM: Drunken Mariachi

[This message was edited by DJ Hombre on Feb 29, 2004 at 05:53 AM.]

pyang-
You are correct. I was bitten by the bug of OCD and ADDHD (or was that that damn 2000 BDX I've been drinking alone?). Everyone has a different experience with what they consume.

I guess the point I was trying to make was that very few chefs have the where-with-all to know what is going on in the dining room while they are focusing on the kitchen. They will often hire someone to represent them in the dining room. Sometimes that someone who will be working for their own resume and a low salary, with the hope they can one day earn a MS or MW and become the next Andrea Immer, Larry Stone or Fred Dame.

I agree, you can pair Napa wine with food. Today I paired a famous Napa Chardonnay with:
Alaskan Halibut with braised leeks, herb and fennel citrus salad with Almonds.

Chef Neil-
All I can say is that you are now a man of two passions (not to mention the ladies). You must now research whether or not a chef- and the people serving his food or sponsoring his course- really understand how food and wine work together. Then you can determine if dinner out is worth it. Value can only be determined based on what you are willing to pay.

DJ-
I have had too much to drink to get started on my response to you. I have already spent 1 1/2 hours writing and editing my previous two posts.
I will get back to you...

C