Have you ever dined at a restuarant that had bad food but great wine? I can honestly say it's very rare for me. On the other hand, I've dined at a lot of places that have really good food but not much wine selections.

When evaluating a new restuarant, is it safer to first read the wine list and then the menu to see if it's a place you want to dine at?

I can honestly say I have had many more great meals in restaurants with better than average wine lists. Knowledge of wine seems to be a starting point for preparation of outstanding food.


Do you find the same to be true?

(In the essence of full disclosure, I own a restaurant/wine bar. I have turned my signature off to ask this question in a generic sense. I am asking this question simply as a customer, not someone ITB).

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Have you ever dined at a restuarant that had bad food but great wine? I can honestly say it's very rare for me. On the other hand, I've dined at a lot of places that have really good food but not much wine selections.

I think that is true for most. I also think most of the masses (not us wine geeks) do not need great or even very good wine with their meals. Most people don't even ask to see a wine list when they dine out. "I'll have a glass of merlot" is what I usually hear - and that is in NICE places. Let's face it we (WS and other nuts) are a small percentage of the $ restaurants make. We are not the mainstream. They profit more in sodas than they do wine.

Restaurants are smart to play to the masses and invest more into their food than the wine, if given a choice. Unless you are a Wine Bar type place, you pretty much have to play to the foodies first. How often do you even see a mention of the wine list in a restaurant review from a local newspaper?

Of course, we go to the places that do both or do food very well and let me bring my own if their list is lacking diversification, depth and maturity (3 of the biggest weaknesses with restaurant lists IMO).

Now that it's summer - it's not a big issue for me. I can make great food and drink great wine in my backyard

Aside from ethnic food where there is no great wine tradition - oriental in particular - or where they serve great peasant food - like ribs and maybe cajun cuisine - I'd think that any place that has pretensions to great food will also spend a lot of effort on the wine list.

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Aside from ethnic food where there is no great wine tradition - oriental in particular - or where they serve great peasant food - like ribs and maybe cajun cuisine - I'd think that any place that has pretensions to great food will also spend a lot of effort on the wine list.

You'd think - but unfortunetly, that is really not true most of the time. Even the nicer non ethnic restaurants rarely put effort into a well thought out wine list. Very few put equal effort into both - very few.

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When evaluating a new restuarant, is it safer to first read the wine list and then the menu to see if it's a place you want to dine at?

No, I think the food is more important. It is like you said there are many great restaurants with poor wine selection.

I agree, Cuffthis. I have used the WS restaurant search thingee for out of town trips, on exactly this theory. I don't remember the name of the place, but 20 yrs or so ago we went to Atlantic City, NJ. There was an Italian place with a good wine score from WS---not in a casino. We went there are the food was fabulous.

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Originally posted by cuffthis:

I can honestly say I have had many more great meals in restaurants with better than average wine lists. Knowledge of wine seems to be a starting point for preparation of outstanding food.

I agree, although good wine always enhances food and the dining experience.

I have found that most places will have good food, but the wine in most casual restraunts is not the best, even if it is a good wine in name and vintange because it is served improperly, namely white wine served too cold. I never even bother complain about this because I figure they keep all their wine in the refrigrator which is a standard temperature, and not proper to wine. So anytime I order, I make sure I order my wine with my food, so that the wine can warm up a bit if too cold, and breath especially if it is a red, though there is not really much time for a wine to breath.Higher class restraunts are usually a little better.

I look at it the other way around. If a restaurant has taken the time and effort to have a good wine list, they will probably have taken the time and effort to have food that will match it. The kinds of people who are attracted to a restaurant by a great wine list are normally also foodies that expect great food.

(And I still have to manage to try Domaine Hudson, I hear the food there is pretty damn good in spite of the great wine list.)

For me a restaurant better have great food first...after all I'm going out to eat. I can overlook a poor wine list. There is usually some palatable wine to choose. If the food quality or service are no good I'm not going back; I don't care how good their wine list is. There are more than a few restaurants that combine all elements well and those are the ones I try to frequent.

When travelling, and evaluating a restaurant, I look at the food menu first. If that passes muster I may ask for wine list prior to being seated...if time (and patience of fellow travellers) allows. Most are kind regarding my wine affliction...after all it benefits most everyone at the table.

I have consulted the WS dining guide w/mixed results...

The biggest mystery to me is Gary Danko's wine list. Lots of great wines, but almost all recent vintages (except for Bordeaux).

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Originally posted by wineOCD:
...if time (and patience of fellow travellers) allows. Most are kind regarding my wine affliction...

Almost invariably I am asked to pick the wine when we go out. And almost invariably it takes at least twice as long to pick the wine than the food. Glad I am not alone. My wife has gotten used to it. Others are learning to deal with it.

As for the question. I think the first thing I look for is good food. Second is good service, tremendous service can actually cover for the little blemishes in a meal. I have never been recommended a restaurant purely on the basis of the wine. I have been recommended a restaurant primarily based on great service, and wine and food. Never have I heard "Hey, you have got to go to blank to eat they have the best wine list."

However, I have been disappointed by a wine list at great food places yet rarely if ever disappointed at a restaurant with a good wine list.

I do agree that at even the most expensive restaurants I have eaten they tend to almost always only have babies on the list.

Just my $1.05
(The cost of freedom by the way.)

Based on recommendations here (regarding the wine list), my wife and I went to Truffles in St. Louis while we were in town earlier this week.

The menu looked good but the delivery was lacking. So much potential but no follow through.

The wine list was amazing, however. 2000 1st growths galore.

Two nights earlier at another restaurant, I had better food but had a choice of about 5 wines. I wasn't pleased...I need the list.

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Originally posted by Curt:

However, I have been disappointed by a wine list at great food places yet rarely if ever disappointed at a restaurant with a good wine list.

My exact point.

Ditto to the above. It is rare for a restaurant with good food to have a good wine list too.

I was at a restaurant recently (which I don't remember the name, maybe it was in Chicago?) that had about a 7 year vertical of Marilyn Merlots and Opus Ones. The place definitely needed a som.

Seven consecutive vintages of Marilyn Merlot? What a stretch!

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Originally posted by Wine&Poker:
Based on recommendations here (regarding the wine list), my wife and I went to Truffles in St. Louis while we were in town earlier this week.

The menu looked good but the delivery was lacking. So much potential but no follow through.

I'm sorry to hear that. We had a great experience with our food there. All four people left quite pleased.