Does anyone think that with some wines, decanting to remove sediment detracts from the flavor and aromas? I have only recently started to take wine seriously, and I am just starting to buy and taste wines into the $15 - $25 range. My example that evokes this question is Chateau Larose-Trintaudon Haut-Medoc Cru Bourgeois 2001. I have now experienced three bottles of this wine. The first and the third (which I am enjoying at this very moment) were stored in my wine rack for several days after purchase (at about a 45 degree angle), carefully removed and opened, and poured straight from the bottle. I found them both quite enjoyable, and relatively complex, aromatic, and well balanced. The second bottle, however, had been in my wine rack for about a month, and was very carefully removed, opened, and decanted to remove sediment. I think I did a very good job of decanting (for my first effort). The wine in the decanter looked very clear, and the remaining 1 or 2 ounces, which I poured in to a glass, was extremely cloudy. Also, a fair bit of chunky sediment was left in the bottle. This second bottle, as I immediately began to drink it (pouring it from the decanter), was very bitter and seemed to be very tight on the nose and hollow on the palate. Maybe the second bottle was just a coincidentally 'bad' bottle, or my sniffer and palate were a little off at that time. But, this seems to fly in the face of the apparently long held belief that sediments will always detract from the enjoyment of a wine. I know that this particular wine, and most of what I am currently able to afford, would be common swill to many of you, but please try to give me any opinions you may have. Thanks!

- Larose-Trintaudon is a very nice wine, even with some cellaring potential (I remember a 1975 that still drank very well a few years ago). So don't feel embarassed to admit you enjoy Larose-Trintaudon.

- Sediment is never agreable. If sediment occurs, decant. Or at least: leave the bottle upright for a sufficient time before opening.

- It seems strange to me that your bottle #2 as that much sediment already. Only about five years after bottling.
It could be a flawed bottle, because you wouldn't expect a chunk of sediment in this style of wine.
Maybe Gigond Ass has a second opinion?

Sorry to jump in before Gigond Ass has a chance to respond, Rik.....but I think this might be a good time to suggest that there is a difference between sediment that has been thrown by an aged wine and debris that might have come from the "bottom of the barrel" or otherwise missed by whatever filtration the wine might have gone through.

I've encountered seeds, pieces of skin, stems and other larger chunks in younger wines that is markedly different than the fine sediment thrown by an older wine.

Neither is enjoyable in the mouth, and I agree with Rik that your 2nd bottle was probably flawed. I'm not sure if the stuff in the bottle was related as many of the young wines I've had with "stuff" in them were delicious.

PH

I never thought of that.
So, it's just bad luck if they scraped the bottom of the fust to fill up your bottle number 2? They shouldn't be doing that, should they?

To come back to the vintage. Would there - apart from the barrel scrapings - normally be that much sediment in a 2001 cru bourgeois of a certain quality?

I would agree with you that this is probably too early for sediment for this vintage of Bordeaux, regardless of classification.

I had a 1999 Podere Poggio Scalette Il Carbonaione a few years back that had more debris in it than you could imagine. It was spectacular. Glad to have that botttom of the barrel bottle, for sure.

PH

Sediment happens in any year wine. It depends if the wine was fined or filtered. No fining and filtering causes such. (The belief these days being do neither, so as not to strip the wine of its character, hence sediment). It is NOT a flaw. Bottle should be stood up for 24 hours and decanted off, just as mentioned above.

You had a bad bottle, or bottle variation has occured. Sediment did not have anything to do with it.

Thanks for all of your replies so far, everyone! I'm glad to see that my inquiry is actually a matter for some good discussion. I wouldn't hold your breath on GA chiming in, as I didn't start off on his good side.

To add a little more information, having finished that 3rd bottle, I even noticed that when I got down to the last 1/4 of the bottle, there seemed to be a noticeable increase in the fruit (and even sweetness), and I discovered a touch of cocoa. It would stand to reason, that after several pours, albeit careful ones, I would have kicked up at least a fair bit of fine sediments (the cloudy stuff that had managed to settle out in a few days after purchase).

I really wonder if the fine sediments in some young wines could provide a vital part of the character. Also, FYI, there was plenty of chunky debris left in this bottle as well (that never ended up in my glass). That seems to be normal for this one, as all three bottles had it.

I'd still love to hear more input on this subject, from anyone out there (including GA).

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quote:

Originally posted by mike p:
Sediment happens in any year wine. It depends if the wine was fined or filtered.

Disagree. A perfectly clear wine which has been fined and filtered can throw (precipitate) a ton of sediment in time. It's a chemical reaction brought on by time. I can assure you that many of my perfectly clear 2000 Vintage Ports and Bordeaux will have a mess of sediment in them in 30 years.

Sediment or debris adds NO flavor to wine. It detracts from the experience. Unless you like chunks of stuff or mud in your mouth while drinking. The change that you experienced in the flavors is most likely attributable to this wine being exposed to oxygen over the course of your drinking it opening up more flavors. I wish I had a dollar for every bottle of wine I've drunk where the last sip was by far the best......

PH

No, I don't think sediment can be part of the joys of winedrinking.
If the wines gets tastier after a while, it's because further oxidation sets loose more aromas and tastes.

Mike P, we were talking chunks of mess, not some result of not having fined, let alone filtered.

PurpleHaze, indeed I remember young Chiantis with all kinds of debris, like whole parts of the bunches of grapes. But I think that's not what we're talking about here.

quote:

Originally posted by PurpleHaze:
The change that you experienced in the flavors is most likely attributable to this wine being exposed to oxygen over the course of your drinking it opening up more flavors. I wish I had a dollar for every bottle of wine I've drunk where the last sip was by far the best......

PH

Good point, PH. 'Breathing' may be an explanation. However, the infamous 2nd bottle, which I decanted, remained bitter and austere until the end, and it was being poured (over about the same amount of time) from a decanter with a massive amount of surface area.

To revisit the 'sediment' argument once more, the 2nd bottle was undisturbed in a relatively upright position for about a month, as the other two were poured after being upright for only a couple days after purchase. Is it possible that there may have been ultra-fine, 'good' sediments that settled out of the 2nd bottle, that were still suspended in the 1st and 3rd bottles? To distinguish from the heavier 'chunks' and 'mud' sediment you spoke of, neither the 1st nor 3rd bottle appeared particularly cloudy in my glass, until the last ounce or two.

I don't know. Maybe it was just a flawed bottle. This is all so confusing, but very interesting! Maybe the best thing for me to do is to buy another bottle, let it sit upright for a month, and decant it, to repeat the 2nd bottle experiment. Gee, poor me, I just might have to drink more wine to solve this puzzle! Thanks so much for your input!

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quote:

Originally posted by WalkingPhoenix:
Mr Badhair,

Have you ever tried Santa Margarhita?? I drink it all the time and never even have to worry about sediment!!!

Gee, everyone's just having a good old time with my screen name!

No, I've never had anything from Santa Margarhita. I'll look for it. Thanks for the tip! If they only make PG, then I'd imagine it makes sense that there's no sediment.

Somebody (maybe Mike P) made a comment about Santa Margarhita in the 'New World vs. Old World' thread. Maybe that's where you saw it. Dunno.

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quote:

Originally posted by WalkingPhoenix:
Where did mike p's post go?

Oh. Heheh. It was you that made the comment about Santa Margarhita in the Old World vs. New World thread. Nevermind.

quote:

Originally posted by dealbhadair:

quote:

Originally posted by WalkingPhoenix:
Mr Badhair,

Have you ever tried Santa Margarhita?? I drink it all the time and never even have to worry about sediment!!!

Gee, everyone's just having a good old time with my screen name!

No, I've never had anything from Santa Margarhita. I'll look for it. Thanks for the tip! If they only make PG, then I'd imagine it makes sense that there's no sediment.

Somebody (maybe Mike P) made a comment about Santa Margarhita in the 'New World vs. Old World' thread. Maybe that's where you saw it. Dunno.

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not me.

quote:

Originally posted by WalkingPhoenix:
Mr Badhair,

Have you ever tried Santa Margarhita?? I drink it all the time and never even have to worry about sediment!!!

Gee golly wiz, WP. You're a hoot and a half! Surrounded by comedians! Kudos for sucking me in on that one. Just got wise to it over in another forum.

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