quote:

...they said me Connacht brogue
wasn't much in vogue,
on the rocky road to Dubilin.
One, Two, Three, Four, Five!
Hunt the hare and turn her down the rocky road
and all the ways to Dubilin, whack fol-al-de-rol.(The Dubliners)

Quite right. But that's a musical/lyrical device they're using. (Listen to the Dubliners singing the ultimate Dublin song "Dublin in The Rare Old Times" and you'll hear no Dub-i-lin")

Anyhow, you really can't use songs as an example of the correct pronunciation of a word.
Just like many incorrectly assume that New Orleans is pronounced New "Or-leens" because we hear it that way in some songs. But local folk pronounce it or-lee-ans - UNLESS they're singing. (and the N'or-lins thing is strictly for Texans, tourists & Hollywood! ;-)

Back to Dublin...
Dublin comes from "Dubh Linn" (the BH makes a V sound), Viking (arguably) for "Black Pool" and there's never been a vowel sound between the 2 sylables, except possibly from the gobs of the odd half-witted culchie from the islands who often put a vowel between EVERY consonant because they're too thicl to deal with consonants butting up against each other . (Like many working-class & country Irish do with "fil-um" for film.)

Anyway, I'll bet my Irish passport against your American one that I know better about my own language

cheers & beers,
matthk

Yeah, yeah. Blame Fats Domino.
But there's a Dubilin in Ca, and there's one in Bulgaria!

And I know how tho pronounce Veuve Clicquot!
There must be some Scottish equivalents of that ö-sound...
It comes close to "you" but a bit longer...

I quite love this little debate about "Moet" and have had many a friendly argument with so-called-cultured lawyers about it. If you've taken the time to browse the net then you'll find every argument under the sun, but I quite like this one

http://www.lucire.com/2002/0530ll0.htm

Great info Saphirra! Thanks for posting. I guess Freddy Mercury was wrong .

how about Jouet then, like in Perrier Jouet.. is that like Moet with the T, or the usual French "aye" sound.. Jou-aye?

Yeah. How about Jouet?

Suggestion 1: it's never -aye, but you don't pronounce the -t either...

Suggestion 2 : it's more like "wet" but without the -t..., kinda like pronouncing Moet, actually.

Question 1: in the odd French lesson you get people over yonder, do they really teach you to say "-aye"?

Question 2: how do you say Hawai? Hawah-ee? Or Hawayee?

Pronunciations are not an easy venture. You must factor in geographic considerations, family names, even combinations of names that might pull from two different country origins...such as pinot grigio. In short, when I was working with my language teachers designing the rather comprehensive pronunciation key for each language we went through each of the vowels, consonants, wierd sounds etc. We were able to include pronunciations of over 15,000 wine names, regions, terms and varietals which covers most of the common wine as well as vintage collector wine. There is simply no other wine pronunciation reference available of this size and scope. Again, I believe we are pretty accurate, considering we didnt know family name particulars or local dialects. To this date, no one has ever come forward and notified me that their wine or family name was mis-pronounced. In the book, I offer to make the change in future editions as needed. As for accuracy, here is an example; the French language is not accented..therefore I chose to not accentuate syllables for the French section. The German section was an exceptional challenge because the names are so long and I wanted to include them as accurately as possible. The book received awards and reviews and I feel confident of the pronunciations we used. When in question, I kept asking "how would a newscaster in your country say the wine name?" Since publishing the book in 2003 I have seen many similar attempts at these pronunciations but often see errors. for example, I recently saw a high priced television advertisement that mis-pronounces "pinot grigio". They pronounce as if all French, but the word Grigio is Italian, so I chose to pronounce Pinot in French and Grigio in Italian. This was a very well known winery!!
Additionally, I developed my own called (Quietics)TM for the French nasal N and other sounds. When you see an (n) within a pronunciation, you "think" the n but do not say it. If you see this system, again its called (Quietics)TM used anywhere else, please note they copied it from me and I have to send my legal team in their direction...

So to answer your question, here are pronunciations offered in the book.

Veuve Clicquot Ponsardin
[vuhv klee-ko po(n)-sahr-dah(n)]

Moet
[moeht]

Roederer
[ru(r)-deh-reh(r)]
**note the German language accents the first syllable but I cant figure out how to underline it as we show in the book. (I cant stand the way ALL CAPS looks in a reference so I chose to underline instead to show accentuation of a syllable).

...and for fun here is
Pinot Grigio
[pee-no g(l)ree-jo]
**note that Grigio is pronounced with just two syllables in Italian.
**ee and ee are accented with underlines in the book.
**note how (Quietics)TM gets you to say the last word more accurately...

...by the way, please note that I'm still very much ALIVE... :0)

If you think the book would be helpful to you or a friend then please feel free to visit my site www.howtopronounce.com and if you order, mention wine spectator forums and I'll personally arrange to have a signed copy sent to you. **expires December 31, 2006

Diana

The short answer is that words like "Moet" and "Roederer" are foreign to France, so pronunciation will vary. The two dots over the "e" means that the vowels are pronounced separately rather than as a dipthong.

Most often mispronounced wine word I hear is Pinot Noi... (no r sound)

The T in Moet is pronounced simply because of what follows it.

Much like the "s" at the end of "vous" would be pronounced in:

"Vous etre un idiot"

or the "s" at the end of "pas" in

"je ne suis pas un idiot"

It is added because it would be very difficult to not pronounce the "t" and go from one vowel ending straight into a word that begins with a vowel pronounciation.

Just try saying Mo-ay ay Shando(n)

that said, I belive that if you say "Moet" alone, the T is not pronounced, but if you are saying the entire name "Moet et Chandon" it is, simply due to phoenetic circumstance.

quote:

that said, I belive that if you say "Moet" alone, the T is not pronounced, but if you are saying the entire name "Moet et Chandon" it is, simply due to phoenetic circumstance.

Nope. The T is pronounced because Claude Möet's name is Dutch, not French and that's how they say their family name.

PH

quote:

Nope. The T is pronounced because Claude Möet's name is Dutch, not French and that's how they say their family name.

Ah, so perhaps Je suis un idiot...

How about this: the "t" is pronounced because it is not especially dry champagne, it is, in fact "mo' wet"

quote:

Originally posted by CaliCab:
Ah, so perhaps Je suis un idiot...

How about this: the "t" is pronounced because it is not especially dry champagne, it is, in fact "mo' wet"

Uh......see sentence #1. Just kiddin', of course.....

PH

"t" is not always silent. Case in point: huit.

But, the T in huit is silent, assuming you mean as in "aujourdhiut?"

quote:

Just like many incorrectly assume that New Orleans is pronounced New "Or-leens" because we hear it that way in some songs. But local folk pronounce it or-lee-ans - UNLESS they're singing. (and the N'or-lins thing is strictly for Texans, tourists & Hollywood! ;-)

I grew up with some New orleans folk - native for generations - and they pronounce it "New Ahr-lins..." neither "new or-leens" nor the ridiculous "Narlins."

You guys are killing me.

Btw, Miss Belucci, what's the first (r) doing there in [ru(r)-deh-reh(r)]?

I think the only right way - especially for you lot - is to get the words on audio and with the aid of friendly electroshocks try to get the words approximately right.

Meanwhile I don't think any Frenchman is losing his sleep over the "t" at the end of Moet.
And they know how to pronounce Nouvel-Orléans too!

So says the resident Belch.

Burp, I say.

quote:

Rik said: Meanwhile I don't think any Frenchman is losing his sleep over the "t" at the end of Moet.

That's the problem Rik, they DO lose sleep over it. It frustrates the HELL out of them that people in the English speaking world are so arrogant that they think approximating a word is good enough. This, and not 'the war' is why they hate Americans and English SOOOOOO much.

oh, they also dislike Americans for the silly "Old Europe" comment by George Dubya. Especially since France and Germany are two of the most MODERN and advanced nations on the planet! - far more progressive and modern than the US and Britain. By about 20 years in some areas :-(

Eh. I have my issues with teh French as well, and I'm quite possibly the most progressive (read: liberal, lefty, dem) person I know.

Take a look at the causes of the recent riots before you start saying how progressive the French are. The French are notoriously intolerant, and socially reactionary.

And, don't get pulled into the trap that the rest of the world has of stereotyping the US based on our most right-wing factions. the squeaky wheel only gets the grease if you pay attention to it...

There are about 62 million French.
About 1/3 of them voted for a neo-fascist.
As many voted Chirac into the presidential throne. Be it that this man should have been encarcerated for his embezzelments during his years as the Paris mayor.
About 50 percent would pronounce Moet as Moettt. The other halve of the population says Moe'. Passing the fact that a great number of them don't know that word even exists...

And of course all of them despise Americans.
Then again doesn't everybody? It's not something to worry about.

quote:

There are about 62 million French.
About 1/3 of them voted for a neo-fascist

EXACTLY my point. Great wine, though.

quote:

Originally posted by Rik:
And of course all of them despise Americans.
Then again doesn't everybody?

Nice post, Rik. Do you despise Americans?

PH