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Does "Clef du Vin" really Work?
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quote:
Originally posted by MoselleLuxemburg:
Got this device a few months ago.
What it does:
It definately changes the wine.

What it does not:
It does not make the aromas evolve like if the wine was aged in a cellar.

As a result:
It is helpful to evaluate the evolution of the tannins and acid in a wine.
It should not be used to 'age' a wine before serving it at diner, the result would never be the same as aging in a cellar.
It's called the placebo effect....... Roll Eyes


--------------------
"One may dislike carrots, spinach, beetroot, or the skin on hot milk. But not wine. It is like hating the air that one breathes, since each is equally indispensable."

Marcel Ayme`
 
Posts: 10227 | Location: The Left Coast | Registered: Dec 01, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Gigond Ass:
quote:
Originally posted by MoselleLuxemburg:
Got this device a few months ago.
What it does:
It definately changes the wine.

What it does not:
It does not make the aromas evolve like if the wine was aged in a cellar.

As a result:
It is helpful to evaluate the evolution of the tannins and acid in a wine.
It should not be used to 'age' a wine before serving it at diner, the result would never be the same as aging in a cellar.
It's called the placebo effect....... Roll Eyes


I assure you the change is very noticable, no placebo.


There is nothing in our intelligence that has not passed by the senses. (Aristoteles)
 
Posts: 1840 | Location: Luxemburg | Registered: Nov 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I assure you the change is very noticable, no placebo.


I assure you, the only real change being felt is your wallet being lightened slightly. If you enjoy it, though, then it's served its purpose. To each their own.
 
Posts: 16 | Registered: Jun 02, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sayheykid:
quote:
I assure you the change is very noticable, no placebo.


I assure you, the only real change being felt is your wallet being lightened slightly. If you enjoy it, though, then it's served its purpose. To each their own.


How can you claim it does not change the wine when you obviously have not tried it ? I have tried it on multiple occasions and it cleary does affect the wine.
Does it improve the wine? Now that's a totally different question.


There is nothing in our intelligence that has not passed by the senses. (Aristoteles)
 
Posts: 1840 | Location: Luxemburg | Registered: Nov 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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How can you claim it does not change the wine when you obviously have not tried it ? I have tried it on multiple occasions and it cleary does affect the wine.



Because I understand how the magical world of science works.
 
Posts: 16 | Registered: Jun 02, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Well now, how exactly does the "magical world of science" prove that sticking a piece of metal into a glass of wine will not affect that wine?

This isn't to say that I'm trying to support either the distributor's or Moselle's claims. While I personally have never tried a Clef du Vin, I'm highly sceptical about the aging claims and find IdeasinWInes' account of the development process to be nonsensical. However, I do find it much easier to accept that this thing is doing something to the wine. I just don't expect that it's anything good, so I don't really care to try it myself.
 
Posts: 2917 | Location: San Diego, CA | Registered: Nov 19, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sayheykid:
quote:
How can you claim it does not change the wine when you obviously have not tried it ? I have tried it on multiple occasions and it cleary does affect the wine.



Because I understand how the magical world of science works.


Your understanding of the magical world of science should tell you there is something called 'catalyst' in chemistry, namely a substance whose presence can accelerate certain chemical reactions. Copper could very well act ass a catalyst for chemical reactions in a wine.


There is nothing in our intelligence that has not passed by the senses. (Aristoteles)
 
Posts: 1840 | Location: Luxemburg | Registered: Nov 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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A Google search: Copper Wine Age
gives the following interesting link:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP1405903.html

So it seems the device is made of 95% Copper, 3% Silver and 2% Gold.
The metals are said to have an Oxydo-reductive effect. (which is the primary type of reaction in aging wine)
The document also indicates Copper and Silver capture the sulfur contained in the sulfites that are found in the wine. That process is said to 'liberate the aromas of the wine'.


There is nothing in our intelligence that has not passed by the senses. (Aristoteles)
 
Posts: 1840 | Location: Luxemburg | Registered: Nov 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I guess a good question for MoselleLuxemburg is do you like the changes it causes? Noticed that you stated that it does alter the wine but not if you enjoy them.
 
Posts: 140 | Location: here | Registered: May 23, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by vin:
I guess a good question for MoselleLuxemburg is do you like the changes it causes? Noticed that you stated that it does alter the wine but not if you enjoy them.


Softening a young wine with agressive tanins is a pleasurable effect, nevertheless i would not use the device to soften a wine before serving it at a meal for instance, just like i would not add a piece of sugar to an acidic wine.
The effect on the aroma is more neutral: it changes the aroma but it does not really compare to an aged wine.
It is a nice toy to play around at a wine tasting event or when evaluating the aging capabilities of a young wine, it does not replace true aging.
At 25$ i would recommend it to any wine enthousiast, at 99$ i cannot really recommend it. Maybe an interesting investment for a wine tasting club.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: MoselleLuxemburg,


There is nothing in our intelligence that has not passed by the senses. (Aristoteles)
 
Posts: 1840 | Location: Luxemburg | Registered: Nov 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Moselle,

Several claims are made in the patent application that are dubious at best.

#1. The claim that the copper alloy catalyzes a reaction with the sulfur based compounds is not backed up by identifying any specific reaction or reactions.

#2. The claim that these (unidentified) reactions are the same or similar to those that occur in natural aging is not supported.

#3. The claim that the result of these (unidentified) reactions frees up aromas is not supported, although it is known that some compounds in wine become volatile when oxidized.

The most obvious negation of the claims comes from the fact that a catalyst has to have direct contact with a compound for the desired reaction to occur. How long do you think it would take for the little alloy drop to contact a significant percent of the sulfites and sulfides? How much longer for the aroma producing compounds to contact oxygen and react?

As a side note, try looking up any credentials for the inventor, Lorenzo Zanon. He appears to have none. The co-inventor is simply a sommelier.

Here is a link to US patent application No. 20050196499

Quack science
 
Posts: 2274 | Registered: Jul 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by pape du neuf:
Moselle,

Several claims are made in the patent application that are dubious at best.

...


Totally agree, pape du neuf.


There is nothing in our intelligence that has not passed by the senses. (Aristoteles)
 
Posts: 1840 | Location: Luxemburg | Registered: Nov 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hello again!

Just wanted to review some of the responses. We want to thank those postings and their authors who have actually tried the Clef du Vin product and share their results.

It never ceases to suprise me how others immaturely sink to using names to reference someone, tearing down a product they have not yet tried. These are always people that I guess, in a sense, think they appear big by tearing someone or something down. As a caveat to all readers, beware these postings, paying attention to those who have truly tried our product.

Scientists simply attempted to recreate the elements of a temperature-controlled cellar and its effects on wine. Their discovery, in accelerated form, was truly amazing!

We challenge everyone to honestly try the product on a wine that ages well. Tell us what you've discovered, like MoselleLux. Everyone's experience is different.

Again, wishing you all the BEST experiences in wine!
 
Posts: 2 | Registered: Jul 30, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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IdeasinWine, why are you telling people fairy-tales of metals swirling around in an ordinary cellar and climbing into the bottles ?


There is nothing in our intelligence that has not passed by the senses. (Aristoteles)
 
Posts: 1840 | Location: Luxemburg | Registered: Nov 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Some of you must purchase this often discussed gizmo to go with your little metal teabag thingee.......

Clicky..........

It's your money. Waste it however you want to.


--------------------
"One may dislike carrots, spinach, beetroot, or the skin on hot milk. But not wine. It is like hating the air that one breathes, since each is equally indispensable."

Marcel Ayme`
 
Posts: 10227 | Location: The Left Coast | Registered: Dec 01, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Gigond Ass:
Some of you must purchase this often discussed gizmo to go with your little metal teabag thingee.......

Clicky..........

It's your money. Waste it however you want to.


Big Grin
Nice find !


There is nothing in our intelligence that has not passed by the senses. (Aristoteles)
 
Posts: 1840 | Location: Luxemburg | Registered: Nov 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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In response to IdeasinWine's comments, I searched for the patents covering the Vin du Clef and found a puplished US Patent Application on the product. The composition of the product is not secret and the claims describing the product are: Copper does react with components in the wine so there is some basis for it to work.

I looked up the patent application on it and it uses an alloy of copper, silver and gold. But since it can contain 99% copper you could get the same effect by using a clean copper penny and save yourself the $90 or so they want for it.

The claims of the patent application are set forth below. To summarize, the product is an alloy of copper, gold and silver BUT it can contain as much as 99.9% copper and as little as 0.05% of each of silver and gold (Claim 2). The actual product probably is 95% copper, 3% gold and 2% silver (Claim 3).

I don't know if there is any evidence to support this alloy as being superior to just putting a clean copper penny or copper wire in the wine.

Copper is known to react with components in wine and some say it improves the wines organoleptic properties.

Claims:
1. A method for processing wine contained in an open or closed container by modifying the wine's organoleptic properties, the method comprising the following steps: putting a wine to be processed in contact with a silver, gold, and copper alloy element having a surface and a composition defined in order to carry out accelerated and gauged oxidation-reduction of the wine.

2. A method for processing wine in accordance with claim 1 characterized by an alloy element comprising 60 to 99.9 percent copper, 0.05 to 20 percent silver and 0.05 to 20 percent gold.

3. A method for processing wine according to claim 2 characterized in that said alloy element is composed of 95 percent of copper, 3 percent of gold and 2 percent of silver.

4. A method for processing wine according to claim 2 characterized in that copper is beaten.

5. A device for oenological use allowing to carry out accelerated ageing of a wine comprising a support element that is neutral regarding oxidation, and an oxidizing element with a predetermined contact surface and a predetermined oxidation-reduction capacity, in order to realize a controlled accelerated ageing operation.
 
Posts: 1 | Registered: Dec 20, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Sid_Mac:
I saw an advertisement for something called "Clef du Vin". It's a teardrop-shaped piece of metal alloy that when dipped into a glass of wine is supposed to replicate the aging process.

Has anyone heard of this, and does it work?

I live in an area that produces 4% of Australia's wine but 20% of it's premium wines. On a recent trip to South Africa we took six bottles of our best to do a tasting. There were 9 of us ranging in age from 48 to 90. One person had a Clef du Vin. We all tried it on different wines - I have now ordered two. Quite an amazing gadget!
To all those in this Forum who have knocked it and tried to prove how it can't possibly work without first trying it........ How rude of you! Just because it's beyond your comprehension doesn't mean it doesn't work. I wonder what you would have said to Christopher Columbus when he set sail for the edge of the world?
 
Posts: 1 | Registered: Dec 31, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Crusty:
I wonder what you would have said to Christopher Columbus when he set sail for the edge of the world?


Bring your Clef du Vin, Chris! It works wonders on those new world wines.... Roll Eyes

PH
 
Posts: 14932 | Location: Maryland, USA (DC suburbs) | Registered: Nov 22, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Crusty's going to be fun!


Just one more sip.
 
Posts: 36736 | Location: NY | Registered: Oct 18, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I made an amazing discovery this morning! When I add milk to my coffee it totally changes the flavor profile. I've decided to call this phenomenon "aging."

Send me $90 and I'll send you some magic milk.
 
Posts: 851 | Location: Chicago | Registered: Aug 04, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Awesome resurrection of a thread!

When the sales rep provides some information that shows complete lack of knowledge in one area, one has to wonder about the other claims. For example:

quote:
The metals, by the way, are a combined patented formula, but FAR more developed than the simple assumption of 100% copper as found in a penny.


If he's talking about a US penny, the composition is 97.5% zinc and 2.5% copper. Has been for many years. Copper is too expensive.

quote:
metallic elements were identified in the air. After continued testing, it was found that these elements did directly influence the natural breakdown of wine preservatives over time.


It's been years since I took chemistry classes, but let's look at that line and the assumptions behind it. Metallic elements were found in the air? OK.

Even if true, gold is generally considered a "noble" metal because it's one of the least reactive metals. (Look at where it sits in the periodic table.) That's why it can stay in the ground for a million years and when you dig it up, it's nice and shiny - it hasn't reacted with anything. Silver less so, but also generally not very reactive.

Both are however, used as catalysts.

So the sales guys can argue that these metals are acting as catalysts to "directly influence the natural breakdown of wine preservatives".

Except that means absolutely nothing at all.

What exactly are "wine preservatives"?

Sulfur comes to mind.

Also tannins can act as preservatives insofar as they mop up loose oxygen. They do that by combining with the oxygen and they also combine with each other and fall to the bottom of the bottle. (Oversimplified explanation.)

So does this thing somehow speed up the oxidation of sulfur? Who knows? They don't talk about oxidation - the thing causes the "breakdown" of the preservatives.

How do you break down sulfur anyway - it's an element.

Since it's the "breakdown" of the preservatives that we want, do we want to unpolymerize the tannins that have linked up with each other and with whatever anthocyanins there are? In other words, make the wine a little rougher?

What else does this thing catalyze or break down?

Hmm - what if we expand it's effects from just the tannins to all the other different polyphenols in wine. Stuff like resveratrol and the different flavonoids and non-flavonoids and anthocyanins.

Why is it that we want them all broken down again? To simulate aging? So we want to simulate aging by reversing aging?

The mind boggles.

And then there's some carmelization and whatever else is happening to the sugars as a wine ages that still isn't completely understood.

The magic device apparently takes care of everything just like that.

While hundreds of reactions take place as you age a bottle of wine, and they all occur at different rates and in different sequences, with this device they took three metals and suddenly can bring all the reactions into synch.

That's just not possible. Moreover, it's not even desirable. I want to age my wine to the point that it's perfect for ME to drink it. In other words, I don't want it to have no "natural preservatives" whatsoever left because then the wine would be dead. And every wine differs in the way it ages.

OTOH, is it possible that this thing really does affect the wine?

Yep. And for those people who claim that they noticed a difference, I'm not surprised.

You could have done it yourself.

Take a piece of Saran Wrap and put it in your glass of wine. People do that to get rid of TCA. It actually works, but it leaves your wine tasting pretty dead.

If you have actual copper, maybe a small piece from a copper pipe or an old penny, or even better, a small silver spoon, put it in your glass and swirl it. You get rid of any sulfur aromas that you might have. It's an old and commonly-known technique for getting rid of the sulfur smells in wine.

That has nothing whatsoever to do with aging a wine, or what you want out of an aged wine.

And this:

quote:
A formula was created with the metallic compound to accelerate the breakdown of preservatives ONE YEAR PER SECOND


is simply a complete load of crap. It assumes that there's an equal amount of all "preservatives" in every wine and that they all need to be broken down.

Oh, and by the way, it ignores temperature. Your wine is cold, mine is warm, and the reactions take place at exactly the same rate.

Someone in that company should take a high-school chemistry class.

I assume that those who champion the device simply haven't had that much wine in their lives but I'm sorry they got suckered in.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: GregT,


"The best part is how he said the ENGLISH language. Fine irony. Use American next time."
 
Posts: 2562 | Location: NY | Registered: Dec 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Board-O:
Crusty's going to be fun!


Another "one and done," methinks.... Roll Eyes

Good stuff, GregT.

PH
 
Posts: 14932 | Location: Maryland, USA (DC suburbs) | Registered: Nov 22, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Another "one and done," methinks.... Roll Eyes

Probably.

But I hope not.


"The best part is how he said the ENGLISH language. Fine irony. Use American next time."
 
Posts: 2562 | Location: NY | Registered: Dec 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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yeah but guys, how can you knock it till you try it. The constant sales pitch is a sure sign of a conartist.


If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door.
 
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