Originally posted by MoselleLuxemburg: Got this device a few months ago. What it does: It definately changes the wine.
What it does not: It does not make the aromas evolve like if the wine was aged in a cellar.
As a result: It is helpful to evaluate the evolution of the tannins and acid in a wine. It should not be used to 'age' a wine before serving it at diner, the result would never be the same as aging in a cellar.
It's called the placebo effect.......
-------------------- "One may dislike carrots, spinach, beetroot, or the skin on hot milk. But not wine. It is like hating the air that one breathes, since each is equally indispensable."
Marcel Ayme`
Posts: 6942 | Location: The Left Coast | Registered: Dec 01, 2001
Originally posted by MoselleLuxemburg: Got this device a few months ago. What it does: It definately changes the wine.
What it does not: It does not make the aromas evolve like if the wine was aged in a cellar.
As a result: It is helpful to evaluate the evolution of the tannins and acid in a wine. It should not be used to 'age' a wine before serving it at diner, the result would never be the same as aging in a cellar.
It's called the placebo effect.......
I assure you the change is very noticable, no placebo.
Slainte Mhath!
Posts: 729 | Location: Luxemburg | Registered: Nov 15, 2007
I assure you the change is very noticable, no placebo.
I assure you, the only real change being felt is your wallet being lightened slightly. If you enjoy it, though, then it's served its purpose. To each their own.
I assure you the change is very noticable, no placebo.
I assure you, the only real change being felt is your wallet being lightened slightly. If you enjoy it, though, then it's served its purpose. To each their own.
How can you claim it does not change the wine when you obviously have not tried it ? I have tried it on multiple occasions and it cleary does affect the wine. Does it improve the wine? Now that's a totally different question.
Slainte Mhath!
Posts: 729 | Location: Luxemburg | Registered: Nov 15, 2007
How can you claim it does not change the wine when you obviously have not tried it ? I have tried it on multiple occasions and it cleary does affect the wine.
Because I understand how the magical world of science works.
Well now, how exactly does the "magical world of science" prove that sticking a piece of metal into a glass of wine will not affect that wine?
This isn't to say that I'm trying to support either the distributor's or Moselle's claims. While I personally have never tried a Clef du Vin, I'm highly sceptical about the aging claims and find IdeasinWInes' account of the development process to be nonsensical. However, I do find it much easier to accept that this thing is doing something to the wine. I just don't expect that it's anything good, so I don't really care to try it myself.
Posts: 1769 | Location: San Diego, CA | Registered: Nov 19, 2005
How can you claim it does not change the wine when you obviously have not tried it ? I have tried it on multiple occasions and it cleary does affect the wine.
Because I understand how the magical world of science works.
Your understanding of the magical world of science should tell you there is something called 'catalyst' in chemistry, namely a substance whose presence can accelerate certain chemical reactions. Copper could very well act ass a catalyst for chemical reactions in a wine.
Slainte Mhath!
Posts: 729 | Location: Luxemburg | Registered: Nov 15, 2007
So it seems the device is made of 95% Copper, 3% Silver and 2% Gold. The metals are said to have an Oxydo-reductive effect. (which is the primary type of reaction in aging wine) The document also indicates Copper and Silver capture the sulfur contained in the sulfites that are found in the wine. That process is said to 'liberate the aromas of the wine'.
Slainte Mhath!
Posts: 729 | Location: Luxemburg | Registered: Nov 15, 2007
I guess a good question for MoselleLuxemburg is do you like the changes it causes? Noticed that you stated that it does alter the wine but not if you enjoy them.
Posts: 140 | Location: here | Registered: May 23, 2008
Originally posted by vin: I guess a good question for MoselleLuxemburg is do you like the changes it causes? Noticed that you stated that it does alter the wine but not if you enjoy them.
Softening a young wine with agressive tanins is a pleasurable effect, nevertheless i would not use the device to soften a wine before serving it at a meal for instance, just like i would not add a piece of sugar to an acidic wine. The effect on the aroma is more neutral: it changes the aroma but it does not really compare to an aged wine. It is a nice toy to play around at a wine tasting event or when evaluating the aging capabilities of a young wine, it does not replace true aging. At 25$ i would recommend it to any wine enthousiast, at 99$ i cannot really recommend it. Maybe an interesting investment for a wine tasting club.
Several claims are made in the patent application that are dubious at best.
#1. The claim that the copper alloy catalyzes a reaction with the sulfur based compounds is not backed up by identifying any specific reaction or reactions.
#2. The claim that these (unidentified) reactions are the same or similar to those that occur in natural aging is not supported.
#3. The claim that the result of these (unidentified) reactions frees up aromas is not supported, although it is known that some compounds in wine become volatile when oxidized.
The most obvious negation of the claims comes from the fact that a catalyst has to have direct contact with a compound for the desired reaction to occur. How long do you think it would take for the little alloy drop to contact a significant percent of the sulfites and sulfides? How much longer for the aroma producing compounds to contact oxygen and react?
As a side note, try looking up any credentials for the inventor, Lorenzo Zanon. He appears to have none. The co-inventor is simply a sommelier.
Here is a link to US patent application No. 20050196499
Just wanted to review some of the responses. We want to thank those postings and their authors who have actually tried the Clef du Vin product and share their results.
It never ceases to suprise me how others immaturely sink to using names to reference someone, tearing down a product they have not yet tried. These are always people that I guess, in a sense, think they appear big by tearing someone or something down. As a caveat to all readers, beware these postings, paying attention to those who have truly tried our product.
Scientists simply attempted to recreate the elements of a temperature-controlled cellar and its effects on wine. Their discovery, in accelerated form, was truly amazing!
We challenge everyone to honestly try the product on a wine that ages well. Tell us what you've discovered, like MoselleLux. Everyone's experience is different.
Again, wishing you all the BEST experiences in wine!
-------------------- "One may dislike carrots, spinach, beetroot, or the skin on hot milk. But not wine. It is like hating the air that one breathes, since each is equally indispensable."
Marcel Ayme`
Posts: 6942 | Location: The Left Coast | Registered: Dec 01, 2001
In response to IdeasinWine's comments, I searched for the patents covering the Vin du Clef and found a puplished US Patent Application on the product. The composition of the product is not secret and the claims describing the product are: Copper does react with components in the wine so there is some basis for it to work.
I looked up the patent application on it and it uses an alloy of copper, silver and gold. But since it can contain 99% copper you could get the same effect by using a clean copper penny and save yourself the $90 or so they want for it.
The claims of the patent application are set forth below. To summarize, the product is an alloy of copper, gold and silver BUT it can contain as much as 99.9% copper and as little as 0.05% of each of silver and gold (Claim 2). The actual product probably is 95% copper, 3% gold and 2% silver (Claim 3).
I don't know if there is any evidence to support this alloy as being superior to just putting a clean copper penny or copper wire in the wine.
Copper is known to react with components in wine and some say it improves the wines organoleptic properties.
Claims: 1. A method for processing wine contained in an open or closed container by modifying the wine's organoleptic properties, the method comprising the following steps: putting a wine to be processed in contact with a silver, gold, and copper alloy element having a surface and a composition defined in order to carry out accelerated and gauged oxidation-reduction of the wine.
2. A method for processing wine in accordance with claim 1 characterized by an alloy element comprising 60 to 99.9 percent copper, 0.05 to 20 percent silver and 0.05 to 20 percent gold.
3. A method for processing wine according to claim 2 characterized in that said alloy element is composed of 95 percent of copper, 3 percent of gold and 2 percent of silver.
4. A method for processing wine according to claim 2 characterized in that copper is beaten.
5. A device for oenological use allowing to carry out accelerated ageing of a wine comprising a support element that is neutral regarding oxidation, and an oxidizing element with a predetermined contact surface and a predetermined oxidation-reduction capacity, in order to realize a controlled accelerated ageing operation.
