I agree completely with Jones. I'd say that maybe the average Oregon Pinto Noir is better than the average California Pinot Noir, but I absolutely believe the best, most Burgundian Pinot Noirs in this country come from California.

"Hmmmmmmmm. That's a rather sweeping generalization, JW1. And clearly your own viewpoint, unsupported by any major wine critic. Unless you have the ability to quote someone of significant regard who repeats this statement flawlessly."

I'm sorry crisis, but you walked right into this one. Normally, I wouldn't do this, but since you like to quote Parker, we'll see what he has to say.

All quotes are from issue 132, December 23, 2000:

Regarding Kistler Pinots: "Steve Kistler and Mark Bixler are justifiably proud of what they have achieved with Chardonnay, but what really turns them on is their accomplishments with Pinot Noir, which may be the greatest Pinots made in the New World."

Regarding Marcassin PN: "With respect to the Marcassin Pinot Noir program, there is no doubting that, along with several of the Kistler Pinot Noirs, they are the most remarkable Pinot Noirs being produced in the New World. If only some of the infamous league of apologists for Burgandy would put these wines in a blind tasting against Burgandy's grand crus. Don't expect that to happen anytime soon."

And finally, his comment on the wine that started this mess, the 99 Blue slide Ridge "...could easily stand up to many a grand cru from Burgandy's Cote de Nuits."

RRR,

That's fine by me. At least YOU were willing to do your homework. Instead of making sweeping generalizations as to one viewpoint or another, you've gone out and found some support for your thesis. Good work.

So, where do we stand?

With WA companing California PN favorably to Burgundy, you have offered three references.

With WA comparing Oregon PN favorably to Burgundy, I have quoted eleven references.

If you were an Olympic event judge, which score would get your vote?

Not sure this resolves anything but let me throw Steve Tanzer into the mix.

Quote from Steve Tanzer Issue #95:

"The number of Oregon wineries that can be counted on to make excellent wine when conditions are right has grown impressively since the early '90s. Yet there are still too many solid but unexciting wines whose appeal is limited by minor flaws or deficiencies: diffuse aromas and flavors; slightly hard-edged acids; excessive or crude oak; lack of complexity; green notes or dry tannins that come from overworked skins; the use of a high percentage of new oak to camouflage strong skin tannins in the early going; and lack of real concentration and grip due to high yields. Some wines, including those with relatively high pHs, finish with a bit too much bite, as their acids and tannins appear to clash. I continue to taste many Oregon pinots that are less than the sum of their parts: all the elements are present but do not quite mesh. Many wines lack pliancy, refinement and style. When Oregon pinots meriting scores in the 85 to 87 range are priced aggressively, they offer decent value. But these bottles are often priced at $40 or more. There's simply too much cheaper and suaver red wine from around the world for wine lovers to spend $40 for foursquare Oregon pinot."

From Steve Tanzer issue #83:

"In my most recent tastings, the '96s as a group showed more depth of flavor, and generally healthier colors, than the '97s, and a number of the '96s appear to have the structure to evolve in bottle. Some may offer pleasant surprises with two to five years of aging. It remains difficult to generalize about these two vintages, however, just as it is tough to characterize the distinct qualities of various vineyards and microclimates in Oregon. This lack of consistent terroir character is largely a function of technical shortcomings among many of the state winemakers (a more important issue when harvest conditions are dicey) and of a lack of continuity in winemakers' styles. I still taste too many wines with green or phenolic notes from incompletely ripened fruit or clumsy extraction. I also taste too many bottles that are overoaked (or "underwined," in the description of Jean Marie Guffens). And I still encounter too many wines whose acidity doesn't harmonize with their fruit.

As in past years, reserve and single vineyard bottlings from Oregon tend to be more oaky and more heavily extracted, and considerably more expensive, but they are not necessarily better. Some of the state's most graceful, flexible wines are those made with a light hand.

While it's easy to say that Oregon has not yet delivered on its early promise, and that the best pinots from North America come from Sonoma County (from the Russian River Valley west to the Sonoma Coast), it is also obvious that Oregon suffered through a trio of rain-plagued harvests in '95, '96 and '97. All indications are that the '98 vintage was far more successful (with riper fruit, generally good balance of sugars, acids and tannins, and drier harvest conditions), and I look forward to tasting and reporting on these wines next year."

Ciao

And now, from a respected wine writer who enunciates my position most exquisitely, with a logic far more impeccible than I could muster:

Michael Franz, wine writer for The Washington Post, February 13, 2002 ---

"Oregon's unprecedented run of excellent vintages between 1998 and 2001 has placed more world-class U.S. Pinot Noir on tables or en route than we have ever seen. This is a pretty big claim, and since Californians are likely to dispute it, I should explain that when I employ the term "world-class" in connection with Pinot Noir, it means, "tastes like red Burgundy."

To be fair, I should note that California makes considerably more Pinot than Oregon, is much more consistent from year to year and generally offers better quality in the lower price brackets. Moreover, in cool areas of California such as Carneros, Mendocino and the Santa Maria and Russian River Valleys, producers are making wines that are truly delicious.

But they don't taste like Burgundy. It has become increasingly apparent that -- even in cool microclimates -- the intense California sun produces Pinot Noirs with a fundamentally different fruit profile than those made in Burgundy's Cote d'Or. California's renditions typically display a ripeness that makes them taste fat and juicy and sweet and sometimes even candied, regardless of whether the wines are analytically free of residual sugar after the fermentation process. There is nothing objectively "wrong" with this style, and many tasters find it enjoyable or even preferable, but it remains jarring and a bit garish to those accustomed to Burgundy's more delicate proportions and more complex aromas and flavors.

If those mushroomy, spicy complexities are what you hope to find in Pinot Noir from American soil, you'll need to hit the trail for Oregon. The trail heads north, of course, from Napa's latitude near the 38th parallel (on a line with northern Sicily or southern Spain) up to the 45th and 46th in Oregon (which line up roughly with Bordeaux). Since other variables are also involved, latitude doesn't translate directly into fixed climatic outcomes. However, it is important for both temperature and sunshine patterns, and Oregon's viticultural profile approximates that of Burgundy more closely than does California in general terms, just as its Pinots are closer than those of California in sensory terms."

For your theses, I think several of you should be awarded the Doctor of Pinot Noir degree (DPN) from Wine Spectator University (WSU).

Perhaps to add some more "excitement" to this dialog, we should branch-out into religion and politics! It seems that this club-swinging debate is going nowhere, 'though some interesting research has been unearthed.

Since I'm growing pinot in Oregon, I obviously have a bias toward Oregon pinots. That said, here is a slightly different perspective. Our winemaker is French, current lives in France, and commutes to Oregon to make our wine. While picking Pommard fruit on September 28th, with brix at 23.5+ on the vine, I asked her about her thoughts on Oregon Pinot vs. Burgundy. She said, "I have no intention of trying to duplicate Burgundy, in Burgundy they simply do not get fruit of this quality. It is a struggle every year. Most Burgundy producers would think they were in heaven to get fruit like we get in Oregon. So, my goal is to make the best wine that I can make from the fruit, and one that reflects the specific character of Oregon".

In a similar mode, Ken Wright is always talking about "a sense of place"... and obviously that is why he is a leading proponent of the single vineyard movement. At the end of the day, that is generally what most winemakers try to do... generally.

The point is this: I have had really good, and really crappy representations of pinot from all three places-- OR, CA, and Burgundy. What makes pinot such an interesting wine is a cross between: (1)the excitement of a pinot where "all the pieces come together"; (2) the grape's extreme sensitivity to terrior; (3) the nature of the climate where the grape grows really well-- (i.e., highly variable). When pinot is "off", it is probably the world's worst wine value, but when it is "on" it is a unique and memorable wine-drinking experience. And that is probably why everyone is beating each other over the head on this post.

Just one more point of clarification. I have a lot (for me) of Oregon Pinot Noir and I enjoy many of them. They are a different animal than Burgundy. I think the Oregon PN's show more power and less finesse than Burgundy and I also find that California PN's are not as powerful and exhibit more finesse than those of Oregon. Last night, with the main course, we had a 1999 Martinelli Reserve. It was more Burgundian in nature than any Oregon PN I've ever had. I don't claim that one example is statistically significant.

Frankie the thread I was referring to appears to be no longer available. This one may be of some interest to you however.

I agree with Tanzer. I like Pinot in all shapes and forms - Burgs, OR, CA, etc. However, some OR and CA Pinot prices are out there for strictly mediocre wines. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there isn't quality US Pinot, but take a look at the prices in the latest WS Pinot round-up. There are quite a few sub-90 point wines retailing for $30 or above.

To buck the trend I had a very nice CA pinot tonight for $29 that blows away a few of the more expensive US pinots I've been tasting. See TNs for more.

BHvineyard, Does BH stand for Brickhouse or Bethel Heights?

Is there really a problem with enjoying the wines of Burgundy,California, and Oregon for what each has to offer? All the comparisons are boring and the final judge is you not Robert Parker et al.

Shane-
I suspect that BHVineyard is not related to either Brickhouse or Bethel Heights, but represents winery that is geographically between those two....

If I'm not mistaken, it stands for "Black Hole" vineyard.

Since this thread has reared its ugly head again, here's my worthless summary-

It depends on how the winemaker wants his Pinots-Dehlinger more Burgundian; Adelsheim(Oregon) more oaky & fruit forward(Californian)

The best New World Pinots are made in Calif.(Marcassin & Kistler regularly get 95+ points & these are more Burgundian in style). The "Calif. style" however, is ripe fruit forward with lots of oak.

Most of the Oregon Pinots I've had are more restrained & more "Burgundian" in style. Jeff Welburn of Angeles Distributing who represents many Oregon wineries concurs.

Board-O. I have to side with the majority on this one. I think Martinelli Pinots are some of the most Californian in style.

This thread is getting ( has already gotten ) interesting. I have downstairs a few Rochioli Estate 99 Pinot noirs, my local store just got a case of Dehlinger 1999 RR estate so I got a few of those, and I just got the last 2 bottles of Porter Creek RR 2000 hillside and creekside Pinots out of New York City ( Porter creek is same terroir as Rochioli, but a few miles closer to the coast, maybe a degree or two cooler , keep an eye on them ) Already had Saintsbury Carneros 2000. I really don't care if they taste like Burgundy, Oregon, California or whatever. I just know that I'm going to enjoy them A LOT!!! P.S. The Russian River valley is a really neat place to visit. So rustic, you can literally feel and smell the terroir in the air.

I hate to say this, but the DEhlinger 99s seem
disjointed at the moment. Hopefully, they will come around.

Picked up some Richoili PN in April at the winery. Can't wait to taste. But I think I'll let them cellar a couple of years first.

While searching for a TN on the '01 Martinelli Blue Slide Ridge, I uncovered this classic thread. Great discourse about differences between Cali, Oregon, and Burgundy pinot noirs.

As for the '01 Blue Slide, it is a terrific pinot. Rich and ripe, full of deftly oaked dark fruits. Long persistent finish. Will likely improve for at least 2-3 more years, but lovely now. 93P.

Cheers,

Otis

Ah, the good old days!

I miss CrisisMode's passion, knowledge, and input on this board.

Just one more sip.