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TN: 2005 Ch. Monbousquet
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well said, machine.
 
Posts: 672 | Location: Orange County, CA | Registered: Jun 24, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Machine:
..but why trust the pros if you can afford to taste yourself? I don't have the experience to know, which is why I want to know what the joke is.


While not disagreeing with you on your post, but at what point in time do you say "Okay I've tried enough wines young to know it's not worth it to open them early". And then seeing that the pros are pros at wine and tell you drinking windows, why wouldn't you want to heed their advice?


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Posts: 12399 | Location: NYC | Registered: Feb 16, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If you love tannic, closed wines, as drab does, then by all means drink them. If you have no concept of a wine in its prime when it has developed the complexity and depth that mature wines possess, as is the case with drab, then tannic, closed wines are for you. To those of us who do understand what a wonderful transformation lies ahead for some of these tannic, closed wines, it seems such a shame to waste them. When someone continually drinks tannic, closed wines and proclaims their greatness, as drab does, I can only shake my head in disbelief that he never learns.

As far as evaluation goes, take a look at the way the professionals, whose palates are somewhat respected, keep revising, often drastically so, their intial predictions of a given wine's evolution. Look at how Parker gave up on trying to evaluate young Burgundy. He was horrible at it. drab has no idea of what these wines can become because he has no experience with mature wines. Yes, the whole situation is a joke to me. A little sad also. Furethermore, he's misleading people, especially the newbies.


Just one more sip.
 
Posts: 37048 | Location: NY | Registered: Oct 18, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Drab,

Next time Board-O decides to jump on one of your TN's before you respond remember what George Bernard Shaw once said. "I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."


pissing people off since 1971!

Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime. ~Potter Stewart
 
Posts: 3475 | Location: oklahoma city, usa | Registered: Aug 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by seanr7:
Drab,

Next time Board-O decides to jump on one of your TN's before you respond remember what George Bernard Shaw once said. "I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."


IS THIS A JOKE?
 
Posts: 812 | Location: Puerto Rico | Registered: Nov 21, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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No it's just the expert on pigs speaking. Roll Eyes


Just one more sip.
 
Posts: 37048 | Location: NY | Registered: Oct 18, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Instant Classic!!


________________________________________
Oh.......Give me a woman that tastes like Rum or put me a-shore to Die!!!
 
Posts: 2645 | Location: Edmonton | Registered: Feb 06, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by Machine:
..but why trust the pros if you can afford to taste yourself? I don't have the experience to know, which is why I want to know what the joke is.


While not disagreeing with you on your post, but at what point in time do you say "Okay I've tried enough wines young to know it's not worth it to open them early". And then seeing that the pros are pros at wine and tell you drinking windows, why wouldn't you want to heed their advice?


I will find that point, would love to find that point actually, but just starting to try bordeaux, at 2005 tasting my notes matched up with Jeff Leve (for example) to a great degree, but with some distinct outliers compared to all others...outliers confuse me (pontet canet and clos fourtet for example...I kept what I ordered but did not get much at all out of them...but loved larcis ducasse, troplong mondot, pape clement, pavie mac), will take 15 years for me to get the answer to the pontet canet/clos fourtet questions, but can hopefully backfill my knowledge with similar information in the interim. Hard to know who to listed to at this early stage in my experience...and 2000 monbousquet (with 95 parker and 89 suckling) emphasizes this point...so need a bit more time/tasting to work things out.


"No TV and no beer make Homer...something, something"
 
Posts: 2839 | Location: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Apr 07, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Board-O:
If you love tannic, closed wines, as drab does, then by all means drink them. If you have no concept of a wine in its prime when it has developed the complexity and depth that mature wines possess, as is the case with drab, then tannic, closed wines are for you. To those of us who do understand what a wonderful transformation lies ahead for some of these tannic, closed wines, it seems such a shame to waste them. When someone continually drinks tannic, closed wines and proclaims their greatness, as drab does, I can only shake my head in disbelief that he never learns.

As far as evaluation goes, take a look at the way the professionals, whose palates are somewhat respected, keep revising, often drastically so, their intial predictions of a given wine's evolution. Look at how Parker gave up on trying to evaluate young Burgundy. He was horrible at it. drab has no idea of what these wines can become because he has no experience with mature wines. Yes, the whole situation is a joke to me. A little sad also. Furethermore, he's misleading people, especially the newbies.


I don't love tannic closed wines, hope that did not come across from my post. Tannic youthful wines can be proclaimed to be great tannic youthful wines and can be said to have great potential, that is what the pros might say (at least the second half)...if someone like them tannic and youthful then great, if someone wastes dozens/hundreds of bottles proving the same point to themselves over and over again then I completely see your point. Hopefully you will forgive me for (a) still loving tannic youthful wines, and (b) trying to test out younger wines to learn what they are like and align my palate with some more experienced tasters/tasting notes, so that I can be more confident letting the entire case lie for the future, instead of just 11 bottles.

As I said, the 1974 volcanic hill cab that I tried was 'wow' for both wife and I, nose was spectacular, taste was spectacular, balance and finish were spectacular...I would love to find another bottle of that, and hope that experience is what I can look forward to when my 05 bordeaux approach maturity.


"No TV and no beer make Homer...something, something"
 
Posts: 2839 | Location: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Apr 07, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Machine,
You are generally on the right path. Ignore the flak from the hacks. The pros recommend you try your wines young as do most reasonable experienced wine lovers.

See my sig below.


___________________________________________________
It's good to try them young too and then let them age - James ********
Infanticide can be very satisfying - Robert Parker
I drink mine young to avoid disappointments - James Laube
 
Posts: 5256 | Location: Atlanta, GA | Registered: Jun 03, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by GreenDrazi:
Machine,
You are generally on the right path. Ignore the flak from the hacks. The pros recommend you try your wines young as do most reasonable experienced wine lovers.

See my sig below.


Good sig...did see Laube's contraversial scribblings re. aged wines (i.e. 'aging does not improve wines')...surprised it did not get more discussion, but perhaps such discussion would only be worthy of a critic with a following.

Can't afford to drink many of mine young, most of my friends don't understand why anyone would pay more than $20 for a bottle of wine, makes it tough to get 10 people together to try 10 young bottles (to determine which I might like to purchase/keep).


"No TV and no beer make Homer...something, something"
 
Posts: 2839 | Location: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Apr 07, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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First of all....if it's young and I've tried it, then Board-O will say "Tannic and closed".

If it's young and he's tried it, it's fine and dandy. Likewise with most anyone else....feel free to say tannic, young, and/or youthful, and "thanks for the note!". AKA...Board-O is a hypocrite.


So much wine.....so little time!!!
 
Posts: 7015 | Location: San Francisco | Registered: Jun 20, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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While not disagreeing with you on your post, but at what point in time do you say "Okay I've tried enough wines young to know it's not worth it to open them early". And then seeing that the pros are pros at wine and tell you drinking windows, why wouldn't you want to heed their advice?


Big mistake here. NEVER take the critics word for it. And...even they tell you this! Use them as a guide. Just because you've had half a dozen vintages of a any given wine doesn't mean you're going to like them all, or want to cellar them all. Vintages are different. Styles change. Winemakers change. Owners change. Practices change. Reviewers change! The wines at your local retailer that were sitting in customs for 3 days before being stocked on the shelf may not taste like the reviews you're reading. If anything, it's good to taste the samples you're buying (if possible)! How else do you know what you're getting yourself into? Your only true guide for your palate is yourself. You owe it to yourself to know you're spending your own money wisely. Unless, you don't know the difference, or don't care to know. Then, by all means, buy what someone else points you toward. And, if your argument is that you can't afford to buy and try, then you probably shouldn't be buying in the first place.

And, if you think like Board-O is suggesting, that every young wine out there is "closed" and "tannic" and that's it...then you simply have no clue about fine wine. And, if after all of these years of trying wine, he's gotten himself to the level of having no clue about a wine until it's finally at "perfect maturity", then I'd say he's gone NOWHERE, and learned NOTHING.


So much wine.....so little time!!!
 
Posts: 7015 | Location: San Francisco | Registered: Jun 20, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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One last thing....as mentioned previously....

The 2000 Monbousquet....Suckling said 89 pts. Parker said 95. Who's right?

Answer: You, once you've tried it and decided what it's worth to you.


So much wine.....so little time!!!
 
Posts: 7015 | Location: San Francisco | Registered: Jun 20, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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To those of us who do understand what a wonderful transformation lies ahead for some of these tannic, closed wines, it seems such a shame to waste them. When someone continually drinks tannic, closed wines and proclaims their greatness, as drab does, I can only shake my head in disbelief that he never learns.


The fact of the matter is that I drink more great young and mature wine than you, and you're jealous about it. You just choose to highlight the young, and fight about it. Maybe you should stop wasting time fighting, and start offering something interesting and thought provoking.


So much wine.....so little time!!!
 
Posts: 7015 | Location: San Francisco | Registered: Jun 20, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by dr.darkrichandbold:
The fact of the matter is that I drink more great young and mature wine than you, and you're jealous about it.


That is a lie. Yes, you waste far more young wine than I do. I learned from my mistakes. It's called intelligence. You haven't had a fraction of the great mature wines I've had. They don't have enough tannin and raw fruit for you. Wines that are built to age and improve for decades are swilled down by you while the glue is still wet on the bottle. The loss of potentially great wine is stagggering and pitiful.


Just one more sip.
 
Posts: 37048 | Location: NY | Registered: Oct 18, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by dr.darkrichandbold:
Your only true guide for your palate is yourself. You owe it to yourself to know you're spending your own money wisely. Unless, you don't know the difference, or don't care to know. Then, by all means, buy what someone else points you toward. And, if your argument is that you can't afford to buy and try, then you probably shouldn't be buying in the first place.

I don't disagree with trying before you buy. But there's a difference between being able to afford 2 bottles and not wishing to drink the wine until some maturity is on it vs. buying 2 cases of wine and trying 1 throughout it's life progression. I am the former, you are the latter (except maybe on port), which is why I pester you on descriptions in your tasting notes. I know for a fact I don't like young tannins and while waiting on a particular bottle, I have many more that have come into maturity or are ready to drink, in which case I would pop those first.

quote:
Originally posted by dr.darkrichandbold:
One last thing....as mentioned previously....

The 2000 Monbousquet....Suckling said 89 pts. Parker said 95. Who's right?

Answer: You, once you've tried it and decided what it's worth to you.


I popped this last year thinking it might have mellowed out (I have 1 bottle left). It was tight and tannic. I slapped my forehead thinking, what a great wine but because it sucked all of the saliva out of my mouth I couldn't enjoy it. (no need to get dry socket Big Grin) So you're right, I found out I agree with Parker's rating more then Suckling's, but bottom line is I wasted a great wine of which I have limited stock =(


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Posts: 12399 | Location: NYC | Registered: Feb 16, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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No offense to you g-man (and this is meant sincerely), but those who can't afford to try, probably shouldn't be buying. For me, it's more of a waste to have something expensive sitting in the cellar, only to find out I don't care for the style, vintage, wine, or what the reviewers thought many years after the fact. And, if one wants to gamble with their money, that's fine too....it's a personal choice.

And, I think most great wines are capable of being enjoyed at many stages of their evolution. I prefer to drink my wines when mature. (Keep in mind I posted TN's on the '85 G. Roumier Bonnes Mares and '82 Gruaud Larose this week). People like Board-O simply choose to always pay attention to the young wines I post on. And, when I post on young wines, it's not because I'm drinking through my own personal stash...it's usually because I'm interested in possibly buying it, so I try it first.


So much wine.....so little time!!!
 
Posts: 7015 | Location: San Francisco | Registered: Jun 20, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by dr.darkrichandbold:
No offense to you g-man (and this is meant sincerely), but those who can't afford to try, probably shouldn't be buying. For me, it's more of a waste to have something expensive sitting in the cellar, only to find out I don't care for the style, vintage, wine, or what the reviewers thought many years after the fact. And, if one wants to gamble with their money, that's fine too....it's a personal choice.



It's an internet forum, there is never any offense taken =) As with gambling, I believe the wine hobby is a lot less expensive then my other vices (while looking at the big bold red numbers in his portfolio) =)

But I don't think you can qualify "those who can't afford to try, don't buy it". I think it's better said that "those who can't afford to try, don't try it" and read notes by people who can afford to try =).


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Posts: 12399 | Location: NYC | Registered: Feb 16, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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or in Board-O's case "those who can afford to buy, but don't try it because they know from experience that there is no experience to gain by drinking a wine prematurely" Cool


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Posts: 12399 | Location: NYC | Registered: Feb 16, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think it's better said that "those who can't afford to try, don't try it" and read notes by people who can afford to try

BINGO!
Well said g-man.

I am in the 'Those who can't afford to try' category...nor do I live near a place that offers a good selection or industry tastings.

Yes, I monitor the pro's reviews...but I like to cross reference with 'Common People' that go out of their way...I greatly appreciate Forumites here that can attend industry release tastings AND those like DRAB who will take the plunge and buy a release and post their thoughts.

However...this is NOT to discourage Board-O from continuing to stalk DRAB and responding negatively...it's entertaining!...besides...the poor old coot appears to have no life...salking DRAB is probably the only thing that gets him out of bed every morning. Razz


Canadian weather?
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Posts: 2243 | Location: Vanc. Island, B.C. Canada | Registered: Dec 28, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Someone is going to find this thread in 15 years to post a tasting note and find all this. With that said, let me add to it.

Drab has made this point of try before you buy before and I think it’s valid in a perfect world. Problem is, we don’t live in a perfect world. There are too many factors in play, be it money, time, opportunity, etc. to try everything before you buy it. Take my 05 Bordeaux futures for example, I probably only tried a few of the many bottles I purchased, but I feel 99.9% certain that I will enjoy my wine because I bought from producers I’ve had in the past and trust, I talked to people in the industry, I went to tasting’s to get a feel for the vintage and I reviewed notes from the wine press.

Even though I could afford it, I would rather gamble that I have 3 bottles of something in my cellar that I might not like in 20 years vs. drinking something now that I know I won’t enjoy because it’s to young. I’m not saying Drab’s philosophy is wrong, it’s just not for everyone.
 
Posts: 6566 | Location: OC, CA  | Registered: Aug 01, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by tyee:
this is NOT to discourage Board-O from continuing to stalk DRAB and responding negatively


Now you're just being a child. What you disingenuously call stalking is responding to the absolutely ridiculous waste of wine. It'd be one thing if he had any ability to determine the evolution of an infant. He clearly does not as James Molesworth was kind enough to point out. Aren't there any hockey reruns to watch?


Just one more sip.
 
Posts: 37048 | Location: NY | Registered: Oct 18, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by GlennK:
Even though I could afford it, I would rather gamble that I have 3 bottles of something in my cellar that I might not like in 20 years vs. drinking something now that I know I won’t enjoy because it’s to young. I’m not saying Drab’s philosophy is wrong, it’s just not for anyone.


Well-spoken


Just one more sip.
 
Posts: 37048 | Location: NY | Registered: Oct 18, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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And, when I post on young wines, it's not because I'm drinking through my own personal stash...it's usually because I'm interested in possibly buying it, so I try it first.



I think this may be the common ground here. I will never open a young Bordeaux that I purchased for myself. If my neighbor wants to pop an '05 Chateau Palmer, I'm all in, for "educational purposes."
 
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