We had this tonight with dead duck breast. I opened and decanted (for aeration) the wine an hour before tasting it. In my experience, Pinot Noir, more than any other varietal, needs breathing time and/or sufficient bottle age to blossom.

Upon opening, the nose was closed, but berries and vanilla were present. With time it opened up and the wine exhibited many Burgundian characteristics. Many people enjoy Oregon Pinot Noirs, and I do also, but the best Californians are far closer to Burgundy than are their Oregon brethren. I believe Parker gave this a 91 or a 91+, but I think it worthy of a 93 and with time, possibly higher.

Board-O,

Am interested in your reasoning regarding the best CA PNs being more Burgundian than OR PNs. It's been my personal experience, as well as that of others I share experiences with in present/past tasting clubs, as well as Parker/Rovanni writings comparing same, as well as pretty much everything else I've read on the subject, to be completely the opposite.

The warmer climate, riper grapes, and vinification techniques of CA winemakers overwhelmingly favor (as with many other varietals as well) the big, muscley, extracted, in-your-face style of PN wine. This stands in stark contrast to the emphasis on the elegance, finesse, subtlety, and food-friendly style evident in Burgundy PN and Oregon PN wines.

This is NOT meant as any kind of put-down of the former style of wine-making/-enjoying. The two styles are simply different preferences by wine makers and wine consumers.

Those broad generalizations are often times applicable if one is talking about California Pinots from Carneros or other hotter AVAs in Sonoma Valley and Napa. Blue Slide Ridge vineyard is on the Sonoma Coast. The Sonoma Coast is a very cool climate and avoids the California stereotype you are alluding to.

CM, please tell me where Parker says Oregon PN's are more Burgundiuan in style than Californian PN's. I'll be very surprised to see that. Oregon PN's are marked by power and do not exhibit the elegance and sublteties of Burgundy.

Board-o,

From the Wine Buyer's Guide, 5th Edition, 1999, article entitled THE WINES OF OREGON

"Oregon's wines are distinctive, with a kinship to European wines. The higher natural acidities, lower alcohol content, and more subtle nature of Oregon's wines bode well for this area's future. "

"Pinot Noir: As in Burgundy, the soil, yield per acre, choice of fermentation yeasts, competence of the winemaker, and type of oak barrel in which this wine is aged profoundly influences its taste, style, and character. The top Oregon Pinot Noirs can have a wonderful purity of cherry, loganberry, and raspberry fruit, and can reveal an expansive, seductive, broad, lush palate, and crisp acids for balance."

From THE 1999 OREGON VINTAGE, Issue 136 - August, 2001

"If these efforts are maintained and Mother Nature chooses to make up for her past cruelties, Oregon should fulfill its promise to consumers to be an appealing alternative to Burgundy when it comes to the world’s most fickle red wine grape."

Seems like Parker and I disagree on that. I find the better California Pinot Noirs far more similar to Burgundy than those from Oregon.

And while he does describe a "kinship" between Oregon and European Pinot Noirs, he doesn't say Oregon PN's are more Burgundian than Californians, which is what I say.

I don't know if you can describe a specific style to CA Pinot. As Jones mentions, those from the Sonoma coast are quite a bit different from those just a few miles away in the Russian River Valley. And those can be very different from Santa Barbara wines, which are typically different than those from the Santa Lucia Highlands. Terroir might have something to do with it, but the winemaker choices probably the biggest reason for the differences.

The same can be said for Oregon. I don't think of Archery Summit wines as being very typically Burgandian. They are quite different than those from Domaine Druhoin (sp?), which are supposedly quite burgadian.

Board-o,

Well, we can quibble about the syntax and semantics about Parker's reviews about CA vs. OR Pinot noir similarities to Burgundy, but from a review of his recent writings about both states’ contributions to the Pinot Noir world, I can unequivocally state that Wine Advocate compares Oregon Pinot Noir on a parallel to Burgundy Pinot Noir on a regular basis, and does not do anything remotely similar with California Pinot Noir.

If you have contradictory and persuasive evidence from any other respectied wine writer to the contrary, please post your evidence here. Thank you

Your quotes do not say that Oregon PN's are similar to Burgundies, just that there is a kinship and that they offer an alternative. Nowhere does he say that Oregon PN's are similar to Burgundies. If you had sampled as many Oregon and California PN's as I have, you'd know that the Californians bear a stronger resemblance to Burgundy than do Oregon's PN's.

"Nowhere does he say that Oregon PN's are similar to Burgundies."
--------------------------------------------------

From WA #96, review of the 1992 Ponzi Pinot Noir Reserve:

"I recently attended a blind tasting where Ponzi's superb 1988 Pinot Noir Reserve was included with some $100+ bottles of Burgundy grand crus. Not one of the tasters (all French wine enthusiasts) recognized the Ponzi Pinot as a non-French wine. Moreover, it was placed first by a majority of the participants, dominating some very renowned and prestigious French Burgundies. Ponzi has been on a hot streak since the mid-eighties, with a bevy of top notch Pinot Noirs."

From WA #120, review of the 1996 Sine Qua Non Left Field Shea Vineyard:

"This elegant offering could easily pass for a classy Burgundy in a blind tasting."

From WA #114, review of 1995 Ken Wright Cellars Shea Vineyard Pinot Noir:

"The resulting wines are lush, forward, pure, succulent and stylistically reminiscent of those produced by Claude Dugat, one of Burgundy's stars."

From WA #114, review of 1995 Archery Summit Arcus Estate Pinot Noir:

"His tastes seem to have been shaped by his frequent travels to France because his wines are quite Burgundian in nature - graceful, complex and with darker fruit than many of his neighbors. There is no doubt that he is crafting some of Oregon's finest wines."

From WA, review of 1993 Domaine Serene Pinot Noir Carter Vineyard:

"This is an impressive, well-made, Burgundian smelling and tasting example of Oregon Pinot Noir."

From WA #99, review of 1993 Domaine Serene Evenstad Reserve Pinot Noir:

"The 1993 Evenstad Reserve reveals a medium ruby color, and a Burgundian-like, earthy, spicy, herb, and black-cherry-scented nose that jumps from the glass."

From WA #105, review of 1994 Silvan Ridge Pinot Noir Visconti Vineyard:

"The 1994 Pinot Noir Visconti Vineyard possesses a Burgundian-like herb, animal, vanillin, and black-cherry-scented nose."

From WA #105, review of 1994 Ken Wright Cellars Pinot Noir Abbey Heights Whistling Ridge:

"There are not many Pinot Noir winemakers who can make six separate cuvees, and have five of them nearly outstanding. In fact, this exceptional success rate puts Ken Wright in the company of such Burgundy luminaries as Laurent Ponsot, Lalou Bize-Leroy, Hubert Lignier, J. J. Confuron, and Claude Dugat."

From WA #96, review of 1993 Adelsheim Pinot Noir:

"With Pinots this delicious, Burgundians better wake up! Bravo to owner David Adelsheim and winemaker Don Kautezner!"

From Wine Advocate #96, review of 1992 Knudsen Erath Pinot Noir:

"How many readers can find a Pinot from Burgundy priced under $20 that can compete with the attractive strawberry and cherry fruitiness of these medium-bodied, supple-textured, lush wines?"

"Nowhere does he say that Oregon PN's are similar to Burgundies."
--------------------------------------------------

And Finally:

From WA #105, review of 1994 Bethel Heights Pinot Noir Flat Block Reserve:

"It would be almost impossible to pick them out as Oregonian in a blind tasting of top red Burgundies. Compared to the Estate bottling, the fruit character moves more toward the black fruit that one finds in the Cote de Nuits rather than in Cote de Beaune."

How much extra time do you have on your hands CM?

JW1,

Well, when someone tries to call me on something that I know something about

and they are Wrong,

I make the time to point out their incorrect presumptions.

Just like you,

when some a**hole attorney gets under your skin,

you probably forego the client billing to go right after him/her in barracuda mode, the time be damned, billable or not.

Board-o chose to make a statement that was completely incorrect. I chose to call him on it. With evidence. That's the name of the game.

"Completely incorrect?" LOL You're comparinmg apples to oranges here. I said the best California PN's are more Burgundian in styl;e than are the best Oregon PN's. Nowhere have you cited anything comparing California PN's to Oregon PN's. Maybe if you spend enough time, you can find something to support your argument, but I doubt it.

"a**hole attorney" is redundant.

Board-o,

The fact is that I have bolstered my claim, and you have provided absolutely nothing to back up yours.

Let's recap:

!) You start out with the claim that "the best Californians are far closer to Burgundy than are their Oregon brethren"

2) I reply with "It's been my personal experience, as well as that of others I share experiences with in present/past tasting clubs, as well as Parker/Rovanni writings comparing same, as well as pretty much everything else I've read on the subject, to be completely the opposite."

3) You reply with "CM, please tell me where Parker says Oregon PN's are more Burgundian in style than Californian PN's."

4) I provide a couple of quotes from WA which compare Oregon PN's to Burgundy.

5) You reply with "Seems like Parker and I disagree on that." And follow up with "he doesn't say Oregon PN's are more Burgundian than Californians."

6) My response is "that Wine Advocate compares Oregon Pinot Noir on a parallel to Burgundy Pinot Noir on a regular basis, and does not do anything remotely similar with California Pinot Noir."

7) An you make the erroneous statement that "Nowhere does he say that Oregon PN's are similar to Burgundies."

8) To which I then post eleven (11) specific references of WA comparing Oregon Pinot Noir, very favorably, to red Burgundy.

Which leaves us exactly here:

I have made the claim that OR PN is more like Burgundy than CA PN is, because, irrespective of my own tasting experience, I have seen this comparison made repeatedly in places such as Wine Advocate, and I have provided specific references to this.

You, on the other hand, have not provided ANY references which specify CA Pinot Noir to be similar to re Burgundy, nor ANY outside references whatsoever, other than your own tasting experience. Sorry, Board-o, I'll take Parker's palate and observations over yours any day.

Board-o,

Regarding . . . "Nowhere have you cited anything comparing California PN's to Oregon PN's."

No, I am NOT comparing Oregon PN to California PN . . . I am saying that Oregon PN is compared to being Burgundian far, far more than California PN is compared to being Burgundian.

When you find a source that compares numerous California PN to Burgundian PN, please feel free to post them.

Parker regularly compares some California Pinots from the Sonoma Coast and Russian River Valleys to Burgundian Pinot. See Marcassin, Littorai, Dehlinger etc. Besides the mere fact that Parker (or some other taster) finds that a New World Pinot is reminscent of Burgundy does not necessarily mean the wine is great as a result.

You are absolutely correct on one thing - Oregon definitely produces great vintages about as often as Burgundy. About two or three per decade for each area.

This is too funny. I'm actually laughing at this. I state that California PN's are more similar to Burgundy than Oregon PN's and Crisis Mode writes a thesis (and a tedious one at that). I never said Oregon PN's don't ever resemble Burgundy. I'm sure every once in a great while a few do. Unlike you, I'll never confuse the two. I yield to your great industry in researching and collecting semi-meaningless and obfuscating quotes. I declare you the winner and me the loser.

As some of you know, it is very atypical for me to get involved in any kind of disagreement. In general, I agree with everything that everyone on these forums says, no matter what they say or how they say it, and I'm not just saying that.

However, in the issue of OR and CA Pinot Noir and Robert Parker, IN GENERAL (and that means that there are obvious exceptions) Parker tends to equate both OR Pinot Noir and Chardonay with their Burgundian counterparts as a generalization. He does so only with a few specific CA wines.

"Oregon makes wine from most of the same grapes as California, although the cooler, more marginal climate in Oregon's best viticultural area, the Wilamette Valley, has meant more success with cool-climate varietals such as Pinot Noir, than with hotter-climate varietals...Oregon's wines are distinctive, with a kinship to European wines. The higher natural acidities, lower alcoholic content, and more subtle nature of Oregon's wines bode well...In California, the majority of Chardonays must have tartaric acid added to them for balance. In Oregon, the wines must be put through a secondary or malolactic fermentation, a la Burgundy, in order to lower their acids...Pinot Noir as in Burgundy, the soil, yield per acre, choice of fermentation yeasts, competence of the winemaker, and type of oak barrel in which this wine is aged profoundly influences its taste, style, and character. The top Oregon Pinot Noirs can have a wonderful purity..." (from "Parker's Wine Buyer's Guide, 4th Ed." p. 1017)

He makes a lot of references to Burgundy in his descriptors of OR Pinot that follow, but I don't have the time or will to keep typing these out.

With regard to California, he is of the opinion that "...Despite improved quality, Pinot Noir is still a questionable wine in the hands of all but several dozen or so California wine producers." He goes on to describe the different regions that produce Pinot inc. Mendocino, Napa, Sonoma, Santa Cruz, Monterey, and Santat Barbara, not claiming that there aren't some very good ones being made, but generalizing that the problem with CA Pinots that they are generally too low in acidity.

I don't deign to promote myself as an authority on this by any means, but I've always been of the opinion that CA Pinots are rich and fruit-forward, and that OR Pinots are generally a bit more austere, in the usual Burgundy style. There are exceptions, of course, in both the New and Old World Pinots.

Through my reading, as well, I've understood that most wine critics, including R. Parker, take this same position. Quite honestly, I've never thought of this as a particularly debatable issue, but rather as commonly-held knowledge.

CrisisMode wrote, "The two styles are simply different preferences by wine makers and wine consumers," and I'm in full agreement with that. I enjoy both styles, but frankly see greater similarity between the Burgundies I've had to the best OR Pinots than to those of CA.

Then again, what the hell do I know?

Parker's Fourth Edition Wine Guide (which you quote from Seaquam) is at least five years out of date (and probably more based on the TNs he used when compiling that edition). Discrediting California based on those words is suspect to say the least.

As a disclaimer, I believe Oregon oftentimes shows similarites with Red Burgundy (but not white Burgundy). The problem is people cite to this similarity as proof that Oregons are qualitatively superior to California. That simply is not the case. The best domestic Pinots are made in California not Oregon. I know many of you feel differently and I don't want to go down that thread again (and if you do then you need to find someone else to spar with) Unfortunately, the availability of the best California Pinots is so limited that people don't get the chance to see California at its best.

Aw, Jones, I'm not discrediting CA Pinot at all. I was merely expressing my opinion that Parker sees a greater stylistic similarity between Burgundy and OR than between Burgundy and CA. I see it as well.

There's no qualitative judgement from my perspective.

OK, I'm tired of this thread, so let's settle it once and for all. From here on out, we will all agree that the best, most Burgandian pinots come from Virginia!

"The best domestic Pinots are made in California not Oregon."

Hmmmmmmmm. That's a rather sweeping generalization, JW1. And clearly your own viewpoint, unsupported by any major wine critic. Unless you have the ability to quote someone of significant regard who repeats this statement flawlessly.

How do we resolve this?

Well, first, we need to get an impartial panel to decide:

1) Which are the "best" California Pinot Noirs (of a given vintage, or vintage(s))

and

2) Which are the "best" Oregon Pinot Noirs (of a given vintage, or vintage(s))

and

3) Which are the "best" Red Burgundies (of a given vintage, or vintage(s))

4) Then, we get a mutually-agreed-upon panel of un-influenced, respected jurists to blind taste these wines, and agree which vintages of Oregon Pinot Noir, and which vintages of California Pinot Noir most completely parallel the equivalent vintages of "Highly-Rated Red Burgundy".

Don't game me with your weak generalizations.